Wheel Problem (AKA Soft V. Hard)

[Mystic]

I've got a problem. I just started roller hockey and I've been using my derby skates with Tuner wheels. They felt perfect. However, it didn't take long before I completely worn down the wheels.

The surface is a medium cement. Not smooth, but not as rough as say a sidewalk.

My first thought was a krypto 62, but they are so slow. Way more grip then I need. Anybody have an idea of a wheel that would be like a speed wheel that will not wear down on cement or an outdoor wheel that isn't so slow and grippy?

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

If the ground feels sandpapery, I have had luck with harder, cheap wheels, like Hyper Raptors. They still stick (even though they are slick indoors) and haven't worn too bad yet... after a few outdoor derby practices the grooves were gone, but they don't seem to be coning too bad yet.

[Mystic]

Yes, very sandpappery. I have set of Twisters. They are hard and cheap. In fact, I got them for free so I wouldn't care if I killed them. They are just so slick.

Anybody have a suggestion of a wheel that isn't disconntinued?

[Daddy-O]

I was going to say to try Annabolix, that's what I've been using outside on smooth cement. I haven't used them enough to comment on the wear factor yet, but the price is (was) right. I don't know if these count as discontinued or not since another production run is planned.

[Skateguy]

The concrete you mention I fear will be hard on anything. --I don't have the answer

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

Yes, very sandpappery. I have set of Twisters. They are hard and cheap. In fact, I got them for free so I wouldn't care if I killed them. They are just so slick.

Anybody have a suggestion of a wheel that isn't disconntinued?

I picked up some Hyper Wise Guys, which are discontinued, but can be found for $10-$20 online. I still haven't gotten them on the outdoor rink. but as soon as I do, I will let you know how they hold up.

[8-Ball]

Crossfires are the answer.

They are a soft enough wheel to give good outdoor roll.. with out being too soft to wear fast.

but...

Good luck finding them. I thought I saw a pair on the for sale forum...

[Mystic]

Crossfires


Your right. I can't find those anywhere. What is the hardness for those?

Maybe I should be asking what hardness rating would be best for a medium cement.

The Tuners were 93a and they wore down way too fast, so I'm assuming they are too soft. Somebody recommened the Anabolix, but they are 85a, so wouldn't they wear even faster being softer?

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

Your right. I can't find those anywhere. What is the hardness for those?

Maybe I should be asking what hardness rating would be best for a medium cement.

The Tuners were 93a and they wore down way too fast, so I'm assuming they are too soft. Somebody recommened the Anabolix, but they are 85a, so wouldn't they wear even faster being softer?

I haven't tried my Annabolix on the cement, but I would think they would be slow. When the ground grips like that, you don't need any more grip from your wheels. The rules sort of go out the window as far as outdoor wheels being softer when it is a grippy, smooth, level, and debris free environment. If you aren't using your Twisters anyway, give them a try and see how the harder wheels work for you.

[Skateguy]

It is "rebound" that ya need, not just hardness numbers. Check out your Neighborhood Skateboard Shop. they got wheels for all occasions for out door concrete.

[Chris_at_SkatesUS.com]

You might want to check out the top four wheels on this page.
They are a high rebound urethane that was originally designed as an outdoor wheel.

http://www.skatesus.com/store/index.php?cPath=72_74

[Daddy-O]

Hey Chris,

Any chance you could talk Roll-Line into building some wider wheels? Seems like a market segment they could move into easily.

(sorry to hijack) :redface:

[Live2sk888]

I'm thinking the hard ones would be a good idea also. But ultimately, that surface just eats up wheels faster than anything else I know of.
A bunch of my friends used to play inline hockey on concrete like that and they went thru wheels like CRAZY... but I would give them my old hard indoor speed wheels and they loved those because they lasted better than anything else (plus they were free, lol)... They would pretty much use their wheels until they were worn down to the plastic hubs, which didnt take too long!

[dvw]

Crossfires are the answer.

They are a soft enough wheel to give good outdoor roll.. with out being too soft to wear fast.

but...

Good luck finding them. I thought I saw a pair on the for sale forum...

I believe the Velocity Race replaced the Crossfires, and are similar.

[Daddy-O]

Crossfires are the answer.

They are a soft enough wheel to give good outdoor roll.. with out being too soft to wear fast.

but...

Good luck finding them. I thought I saw a pair on the for sale forum...


BTW, I have the Crossfires still for sale. Let me know if anyone is interested.

[rsfaze]

BTW, I have the Crossfires still for sale. Let me know if anyone is interested.

Whats a cross fire?

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

Whats a cross fire?

It was a soft, tall, skinny, black wheel with a cool looking hub Pacer made a couple of years ago... they discontinued them around the same time people started liking them.

[rsfaze]

It was a soft, tall, skinny, black wheel with a cool looking hub Pacer made a couple of years ago... they discontinued them around the same time people started liking them.

ah cool. I need an outdoor wheel that I can practice footwork on.

[Mystic]

BTW, I have the Crossfires still for sale. Let me know if anyone is interested.

What's the hardness? Are they new or close to? How much?

[Daddy-O]

What's the hardness? Are they new or close to? How much?


I just lowered the price to $65 shipped in the advertised section, you can see the pictures there. They're in excellent condition.

No hardness is listed on them, but if I had to guess, somewhere between 91a and 93a? They skate great indoors as well.

[Armadillo]

Mystic,
I think you have it backwards - harder wheels are abraded away faster by concrete.

Concrete is harder than any wheel, obviously. In order for the little "teeth" of the "sandpaper" concrete to take their mini-bites out of the wheel, it must be hard enough to resist the sharp edges to the point where they cut into the surface and remove some material. With a softer wheel, the surface will just compress and the "teeth" will not be able to penetrate the surface, because it is too squishy.

So, you may need an 88A or even an 83A (if it is a high rebound formula).

I have skated Velocity Race 78A wheels for 500+ miles on outdoor concrete and asphalt without any observable wear yet (98% straight ahead though).

Experiment! and you will see what's best. -Armadillo

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

Mystic,
I think you have it backwards - harder wheels are abraded away faster by concrete.

Concrete is harder than any wheel, obviously. In order for the little "teeth" of the "sandpaper" concrete to take their mini-bites out of the wheel, it must be hard enough to resist the sharp edges to the point where they cut into the surface and remove some material. With a softer wheel, the surface will just compress and the "teeth" will not be able to penetrate the surface, because it is too squishy.

So, you may need an 88A or even an 83A (if it is a high rebound formula).

I have skated Velocity Race 78A wheels for 500+ miles on outdoor concrete and asphalt without any observable where yet (98% straight ahead though).

Experiment! and you will see what's best. -Armadillo

I think you are absolutely correct as far as skating on bike paths and sidewalks. I use Motions and Routes, which are 78a for those occasions and they are both holding up great... on the flat outdoor rink we skate on for roller derby in Providence, I coned just about all of my Flat Outs (88a) in about two hours. The Raptors are still going strong, though.

[MistyMills]

I've found that my Radar Pures work really well on rough concrete and don't give too much of the bogged down feeling. They're 78a and I haven't seen too much wear on them yet after a year of using them indoors and also outdoors on smooth blacktop and rough concrete. You might want to see if anyone has any you can borrow for a day.

[Mystic]

Mystic,
I think you have it backwards - harder wheels are abraded away faster by concrete.

Concrete is harder than any wheel, obviously. In order for the little "teeth" of the "sandpaper" concrete to take their mini-bites out of the wheel, it must be hard enough to resist the sharp edges to the point where they cut into the surface and remove some material. With a softer wheel, the surface will just compress and the "teeth" will not be able to penetrate the surface, because it is too squishy.

Hmmm. So a soft wheel like an 88a Flat Out would last longer on concrete then say a 97a Twister? Isn't the opposite true when skating on a nice indoor coated floor?

[Armadillo]

Hmmm. So a soft wheel like an 88a Flat Out would last longer on concrete then say a 97a Twister? Isn't the opposite true when skating on a nice indoor coated floor?

I do not know how a nice coated wood floor can cause significant wear on any kind of wheel, hard or soft? Perhaps someone else can expalin that.

I have ZERO indoor skating experience, and so can only comment on the ways that wheels interact with rougher surfaces. Imagine a balloon and an ice pick (think wheel & Concrete). In order for the the ice pick to pop (wear) the balloon (wheel), the balloon has to be blown up tight (hard wheel). Only then can the ice pick penetrete & pop the balloon (wear down wheel).
If the balloon is under-inflated (soft wheel) the ice pick just makes a dimple in the balloon, which springs back out, and balloon does not pop (wear).

The price paid for a soft wheel is that produces an effectively rectangular flat zone under the wheel, as the urethane compresses, squishing into itself, causing a lot more rolling resistance. So the softer urethane "bends without breaking" where the harder urethane gets "eaten alive". -Armadillo

[dvw]

I do not know how a nice coated wood floor can cause significant wear on any kind of wheel, hard or soft? Perhaps someone else can expalin that.

C'mon, 'dillo, you're a bright sod. :)

Anytime you have two surfaces in contact and friction is present, the softer surface will wear.

Skate wheels do no operate in a perfect world. The edges get set down first and picked up last. Particularly with wider speed wheels, just skating around a corner causes one edge to turn faster or slower than than the other, which means that something is grinding against something else.

I can show you piles of wheels skated exclusively indoors that have suffered all manner of atrocities.

[Kennedy]

I do not know how a nice coated wood floor can cause significant wear on any kind of wheel, hard or soft? Perhaps someone else can expalin that.


In general, wheels wear very slowly indoors. The problem is the heat cycles the wheels go through. Over time, the wheels get hard and do not grip. I have a set of American made cannibals with some grooves still showing, but they are hard as a piece of steel. Great roll, no grip. The wheels are shot.

But, like dvw said, there are any number of ways to chew up a wheel indoors. I have destroyed any number of wheels over the years from screwing around. Jumping on speed wheels does a number on them. Chunked urethane, urethane separated from hub, broken hubs, bent hubs, smashed bearing bores; you name it I have probably done it.

[Armadillo]

C'mon, 'dillo, you're a bright sod. :)

Anytime you have two surfaces in contact and friction is present, the softer surface will wear.

Skate wheels do no operate in a perfect world. The edges get set down first and picked up last. Particularly with wider speed wheels, just skating around a corner causes one edge to turn faster or slower than than the other, which means that something is grinding against something else.

I can show you piles of wheels skated exclusively indoors that have suffered all manner of atrocities.

I think Mystic will confirm that softer wheels will wear more slowly.

I am just starting to use my new Roll-Line Helium 83A wheels outside in place of 78A wheels. I expect them to wear faster on concrete and asphalt, much faster. Wear requires one suface eats away material from another.

Have you ever had a plaster cast cut off one of your limbs? The abrasive wheel eats right through the HARD CAST but DOES NOT SHRED your skin when it touches you. How come?
-Armadillo

Have you ever seen a spinning tire dig out a gouge in asphalt?
Very little tire gets consumed, but a lot of the road disappears

[Mystic]

Anytime you have two surfaces in contact and friction is present, the softer surface will wear.


That what I had always assumed. However Armadillo seems to have a different opintion. I would love to hear a few more thoughts on the subject.

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

That what I had always assumed. However Armadillo seems to have a different opintion. I would love to hear a few more thoughts on the subject.

I don't know much of anything, but I do know that on the same outdoor rink, my Flat-Outs had noticeable wear in a day, whereas my harder Raptors are still going strong after a few months.

[Armadillo]

I don't know much of anything, but I do know that on the same outdoor rink, my Flat-Outs had noticeable wear in a day, whereas my harder Raptors are still going strong after a few months.


Only OUTDOORS on CONCRETE SPECIFICALLY do I say harder wheels wear faster. The situation INDOORS is totally different, and those with experience INDOORRS know that answer.

I ran a machine shop at a high tech R&D facility for many years, and I can tell you flat out that grinding harder materials was WAY EASIER than trying to grind SOFTER MATERIALS.

Still, what I say doesn't matter. Roll with hard wheels & then roll with soft wheels. You will see the same dramatic difference - with SOFT showing LESS WEAR on CONCRETE. If you find your results are different, please enlighten me - I will be very suprised. Otherwise, use the softest wheel that balances decent roll against decent wear. I am on Roll-Line Heliums now and the better roll of an 83A over a 78A seems worth whatever faster wear this will trigger. I am going to measure both mies and wear.

[Fresh Eddie Fresh]

The Flat Outs vs. Raptors were outdoors, on an unpolished concrete rink. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, this is just what I had experienced.

On bike paths and on the street, I am most definitely a fan of the softer (78a) wheels, but on outdoor rinks I have always had better luck with harder wheels. Everyone else's mileage may vary....

[Darkjester]

Lets think of it in a simpler manner.

outdoors= Cheesegrater. Run a wheel hard or soft against it and the softer will lose.

Indoors=Steel. A harder wheel has less 'give' to it so has more constant direct contact against it, scouring away a bit at a time. A softer wheel 'gives' a little more, so its more fluid and rolls with the flat surface, thereby being worn away slower.

[Armadillo]

Lets think of it in a simpler manner.

outdoors= Cheesegrater. Run a wheel hard or soft against it and the softer will lose.

Indoors=Steel. A harder wheel has less 'give' to it so has more constant direct contact against it, scouring away a bit at a time. A softer wheel 'gives' a little more, so its more fluid and rolls with the flat surface, thereby being worn away slower.

Pick any analogy you like - if the cheese grater cutting edge can't push DEEP enough or HARD enough to ACTUALLY CUT INTO THE material => BECAUSE SOFT URETHANE COMPRESSES AWAY FROM THE CUTTING EDGE, then SOFTER WILL RESIST WEAR BETTER.

It also requires a certain level of FORCE to be developed at the wheel surface for a sharp item to PENETRATE into the URETHANE. With hard wheels having LESS SQUISH the forces (LBS/SQ-IN) are much higher in the Hard Wheel's smaller area of wheel-to-concrete contact. This allows the sharp rough concrete edges to be pressed with more force against the wheel AND do more damage to the HARDER wheel per revolution.

INDOORS, I'm sure is a whole different ball game. I don't really grasp what isthe primary cause of indoor wheel wear? But, the same rules apply - softer wheel has bigger area of floor contact and less LBS/SQ-IN. force pressing the floor into the wheel surface.

-Armadillo

[porsche930dude]

i agree with you armadillo. the harder wheels do wear more on a rough surface. Also i think softer wheels wear more indoors. Like an eraser on a pencil it scrubs it off easier wheras it would just conform and grip on a rougher surface

[Mystic]

Wow, somebody found an old post, but it was fun to see it again. I finally decided to go with Atom Century. We shall see how it goes.

[A-Town Sk8er]

I finally desided to go with Adam Century

LOL Adam who? ...........Its Atom :rolleyes::D

[porsche930dude]

yea i realized that after i posted :) Hey its all new to me