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View Full Version : Which one of these is better suited for an outdoor quad sneaker skate?


SchoolyaChilds
June 17th, 2010, 08:54 PM
Looking to build my first set of sneaker skates... do you think either of these make good candidates for boots?

http://www.journeys.com/product.aspx?id=159854&g=girls&p=shoes&s=10&m=SM

http://www.journeys.com/product.aspx?id=167738&g=girls&p=shoes&s=10&m=SM

Reserector
June 17th, 2010, 10:10 PM
They both look similar in construction . Very likely they have a foam core like the DRIVING SHOES that I just mounted. (http://www.southernskater.com/showthread.php?tid=62)

I really like the way Jamskateaddiction did them in HER VIDEO. (http://www.youtube.com/user/JamSkateAddiction#p/u/12/QOBZYkFKpZA) She used an aluminum plate on the inside with spacers between the inner plate and the skate plate. Done that way, it won't matter what is between the insole and the bottom.

Armadillo
June 18th, 2010, 12:30 AM
Looking to build my first set of sneaker skates... do you think either of these make good candidates for boots?

http://www.journeys.com/product.aspx?id=159854&g=girls&p=shoes&s=10&m=SM

http://www.journeys.com/product.aspx?id=167738&g=girls&p=shoes&s=10&m=SM

What kind of plates do you plan to use, and what kind of skating will you do with them?

These two shoes are not very structural in their design.
Whenever you see threads around the sole it is a sign of a flimsy shoe.
They at least have flat soles and are visually appealing.
The foam soles may not be stiff enough to keep the plate supported properly without adding a stiffener sheet to increase the area of the top of the plate to more closely match the area of the shoe sole.

They can still work, but I would not expect them to take much abuse or to last very long.

-Armadillo

sidge
June 18th, 2010, 10:17 AM
Nike overplay IV to be exact. I picked them for their relatively rigid soles. The soles should hard to bend or twist with your hands. People often make skates out of cleats or basketball shoes for this reason. Such shoes have rigid soles. Its also important that the shoe not be mushy- have very much foam. The foam compressing in the sole makes it harder to skate. I have found (from trying it) that a foam core shoe will tend to slop over the sides of the skate plates and put pressure unevenly on my feet which gets painful after a while. If you go with a soft soled shoe, you will need reinforcement.

Armadillo
June 18th, 2010, 07:19 PM
Nike overplay IV to be exact. I picked them for their relatively rigid soles. The soles should hard to bend or twist with your hands. People often make skates out of cleats or basketball shoes for this reason. Such shoes have rigid soles. Its also important that the shoe not be mushy- have very much foam. The foam compressing in the sole makes it harder to skate. I have found (from trying it) that a foam core shoe will tend to slop over the sides of the skate plates and put pressure unevenly on my feet which gets painful after a while. If you go with a soft soled shoe, you will need reinforcement.

Good points you make, and your actual build experience make me take them more seriously than the "mere opinions" of many other SLF posters on this subject.

I have found that it is not so much a problem of too thick foam in the sole, but rather TOO LITTLE AREA on the top of the plate to give decent support with the cushier foam soles. As you point out, such foam soles need an adapter sheet (carbon fiber or thin premium plywood) to prevent the foot from rolling over the outer edged of the plate's top.
The more cushy the sole, the wider and closer to full sole width the stiffener sheet needs to be.

However, this kind of a heavy foam sole is EXACTLY what is needed for outdoor skates in order to do a decent job of absorbing the vibrations and preventing foot numbness. So the real trick it to find the sweet spot of how big a sole stiffener to use in order to give decent support without going so big that the shock absorbing benefits of the foam are lost. It is a tricky call to make in determining just where this sweet spot falls.

-Armadillo

sidge
June 19th, 2010, 01:18 AM
they don't feel mushy...more kinda springy. But I need to test more. You might look into them armadillo, they don't cost much and they don't have air bags to puncture.

Armadillo
June 19th, 2010, 03:07 AM
they don't feel mushy...more kinda springy. But I need to test more. You might look into them armadillo, they don't cost much and they don't have air bags to puncture.

They (Nike Overplay IV BB shoes) seem OK for the price. The nice flat sole with lots of grooves is great for a glue mount. Sole width is a little wide for my taste.
I prefer air foam sole over air pockets, and this is what my avatar PIC skates use too. The outside lateral support is not that good at the forefoot, only at the heel, but they can work adequately for a decent outdooe build.

For my money, the Zoom Air Flight 96 still can't be beat if your foot fits them in a decent way - most structure I have seen in ANY BB shoe.

-Armadillo

sidge
June 19th, 2010, 05:51 AM
Just got back from skating them at the rink for a few hours. I am pretty happy with them.

I haven't skated any quad boots with outside counters at the balls of the feet. Given my my wide feet's sensitivity to narrow shoes (and especially skates) I doubt I could find anything like that on the shelf.

I did a tee nut mount (because i'm still experimenting with placement and maybe some different plates soon. I noticed I could feel the nicks and scratches in the floor like never before- so I don't think they absorb shock very well. But I would need to get some softer wheels to go try them out on the asphalt.

I wonder how much adding silicone or urethane grommets to the screws heads(next to the plate) would help to reduce vibration transmission...

sidge
June 27th, 2010, 09:53 PM
I think they absorb vibration pretty well.

I took the overplays out on the asphalt with my indoor wheels. I could not reasonably skate the streets around here due to their glued down gravel construction. My 62mm wheels are just too small. I did find park trails with better asphalt that were quite skate-able with my black fugitive wheels. I really felt the bits of lose gravel and I think I need softer wheels with more rebound but after skating them for a few miles I didn't notice any discomfort from vibration. Or any discomfort except sore muscles. I finally have skates that fit my feet...

from this I conclude:
Nike Overplay IV absorb vibration well, even mounted with Tee nuts. Better than both my inline skates

masmojo
June 29th, 2010, 08:14 PM
I would caution anybody from building Skates with Foam soles; Modern athletic shoes with foam soles may absorb shock well, but I have found that the Foam breaks down quite quickly! Most modern running shoes have soft foam soles and the manufacturers generally state that people that run alot should buy new shoes every SIX MONTHS!! :(

It's doubtfull that you will stress the shoe as much as a runner, but I have had running shoes and cross trainers in my closet that for whatever reason I stopped wearing then tried to wear them a year or two later only to have the soles totally disentegrate!! Important to realize that glueing a skate to the bottom of the shoe also puts a stress on the shoe that it was not designed to be submitted to! Most athletic shoes were not designed to have a large weight attached to the bottom effectively pulling at the bottom of the shoe with every stride!

Something to think about!!:wink:

Armadillo
June 29th, 2010, 09:43 PM
I would caution anybody from building Skates with Foam soles; Modern athletic shoes with foam soles may absorb shock well, but I have found that the Foam breaks down quite quickly! Most modern running shoes have soft foam soles and the manufacturers generally state that people that run alot should buy new shoes every SIX MONTHS!! :(

It's doubtfull that you will stress the shoe as much as a runner, but I have had running shoes and cross trainers in my closet that for whatever reason I stopped wearing then tried to wear them a year or two later only to have the soles totally disentegrate!! Important to realize that glueing a skate to the bottom of the shoe also puts a stress on the shoe that it was not designed to be submitted to! Most athletic shoes were not designed to have a large weight attached to the bottom effectively pulling at the bottom of the shoe with every stride!

Something to think about!!:wink:

masmojo,The sky is NOT falling! Good athletic shoes have GOOD FOAM.

The #! MOST IMPORTANT THING NEEDED FOR A GOOD OUTDOOR SKATE BUILD IS A WELL CUSHIONED SOLE!!!!!!
I have Nike Zoom Air BB shoes that are 14+ years old and they have nearly 2500 miles on them. The sole foam is NOT BREAKING DOWN.
I recently ripped off the glued mounted Chicago Panther nylon plates to confirm that my glue mount scheme was still safe and reliable after 13+ years. The glue bond was so strong, I could not rip them off, and even with a serrated knife it was very difficult to pull and cut them off. The foam remains very tough.

Despite the age of these shoes and their foam shoes, I decided to do a new glue mount using longer Omega plates on them with a carbon fiber plate adapter sheet. This new build is the BEST OUTDOOR SKATE I have ever skated, and I believe these skates are the most comfortable outdoor skates in the world! If anyone doubts this, I can build you a pair to prove it.

While I do not doubt that your BAD experience with crappy foam soles is possible, I assure you that the more premium type of shoe like the Nike Zoom Air designs ARE NOT prone to the type of problems you describe.

-Armadillo

masmojo
June 29th, 2010, 10:07 PM
Could be the weather down here, but I have had 3 pairs of shoes come apart on me, The first were $120. Addidas running shoes, the second were some Nike Cross trainers and the third were some other high end running shoes (can't remember the name right now? Avia? Or something like that!) But on all of them the foam cushion; the part between the treaded part on the bottom and bottom of the shoe itself literally crumbled into pieces and fell out. The foam gets hard and loses it's elasticity then starts to crack and once that happens the end comes FAST!!

Sounds like you have had good luck, but modern foam sole shoes ARE designed to sacrifice themselves to save your body from pounding and discomfort!

Never said the sky was falling, but people should be aware that if building this type os skate they MIGHT need to remount after a number of years, which would probably be agood idea anyway! :wink:

sidge
June 29th, 2010, 10:52 PM
I was going to do a little stiffening to the overplays by adding some Tee nuts to the bottom of the plate facing up. So far they skate well without discomfort but I feel like they will sag eventually.

Armadillo
July 1st, 2010, 05:10 AM
Here are more reasons why GLUE mounting a foam sole shoe is the BEST, and is NOT going to over stress the foam, especially when the plate is WIDE at both ends, or when you add a sole adapter sheet between shoe and plate that WIDENS the contact zone with the sole:

1) A properly engineered GLUE mount will "reach out" to the side structure of the shoe and the foam will NOT be getting stressed that much from the hanging weight of the skate when feet are off the ground. Similarly, the turning forces applied to pull on the upward side of the plate will come more from the side structure of the shoe than from the foam sole, since the glue comes much closer to the outside edge of the shoes than screws ever do.

2) The Glue mount distributes the turning forces EVENLY across the maximum area of the sole and allows the SIDES of the shoe, which have the most leverage for turning the plate, to be used most effectively. Screw mounts concentrate too much force on the the BOTTOM CENTER of the shoe sole, and this can overload the foam unless spreader plates inside the shoe are used.

-Armadillo

sidge
July 1st, 2010, 01:55 PM
Since I have a nice smooth aluminum plate, I am not sure how well glue will stick to it. I would also like to be able to remove the plate without a saw.

So here is the idea: Put cellophane or similar on the back of the plate then glue it. Put the the bolts back in.

This would get the the benefits of glue mounting and bolt mounting. Might be a little ugly depending on the glue job.

If I used epoxy, I might even avoid having to use a stiffener plate.

ursle
July 1st, 2010, 02:17 PM
Open a window the fumes are beginning to distort reality here...:)

Armadillo
July 1st, 2010, 03:41 PM
Open a window the fumes are beginning to distort reality here...:)

To quote Albert Einstein=> "Condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance"

Since I have a nice smooth aluminum plate, I am not sure how well glue will stick to it. I would also like to be able to remove the plate without a saw.

So here is the idea: Put cellophane or similar on the back of the plate then glue it. Put the the bolts back in.

This would get the the benefits of glue mounting and bolt mounting. Might be a little ugly depending on the glue job.

If I used epoxy, I might even avoid having to use a stiffener plate.

I will be testing glue strength for aluminum plates shortly. Report coming soon. The only AL plate I currently have is a Century, and the rivet ends protruding up top are a huge fly in the ointment for good glue adhesion. Have to find a better design plate before I can complete this.

Until then, the simple & reliable way to handle glue mounts of aluminum plates is to mount a carbon fiber sheet to the top of the plate with 8-32 NON-PRONGED T-nuts going through the carbon and into the plate holes too - just short of poking out the bottom side of the plate. You can then join the carbon sheet to the plate with high strength 8-32 screws (+washers if needed). Now when you glue this assembly onto the shoe sole, it is only the carbon being stuck to the shoe - not your precious plate.
Plus, you don't have to muck up the sole with any SILLY HOLES going through it either, which only mess with your feet and carry vibrations up to them. You will need to glue the T-nuts onto the carbon sheet with epoxy to prevent wear and damage to the carbon and to better distribute the forces across the carbon sheet.
If you bail out on the shoes later, you can also remove the carbon sheet, but it does take some serious effort to accomplish.

-Armadillo

Armadillo
July 1st, 2010, 03:58 PM
They both look similar in construction . Very likely they have a foam core like the DRIVING SHOES that I just mounted. (http://www.southernskater.com/showthread.php?tid=62)

I really like the way Jamskateaddiction did them in HER VIDEO. (http://www.youtube.com/user/JamSkateAddiction#p/u/12/QOBZYkFKpZA) She used an aluminum plate on the inside with spacers between the inner plate and the skate plate. Done that way, it won't matter what is between the insole and the bottom.

Reserector, and EVERYONE ELSE considering sneaker skates,

NO> NO> NO> NO> NO> NO>NO> NO> NO> NO> NO> NO>
This scheme is ABSOLUTELY NOT how you want to make OUTDOOR sneaker skates!!!!!

This concept will DESTROY YOUR FEET with vibrations passing RIGHT THROUGH THE SOLE via the hard aluminum-to-aluminum spacers. It totally WIPES OUT the benefits of the rubber sole. The only thing left to absorb vibration is the THIN INSOLE. Yes, it SEEMS LIKE A GOOD DESIGN ===> BUT IT IS HORRIBLE.

Plus it is SO HEAVY I can't even imagine lacing those boat anchors onto my feet. You might as well strap some barbells to your feet! If the sheet inside the shoe was CARBON FIBER, and the SPACERS WERE ELIMINATED, it could be at least a mediocre scheme, but would still have less than optimum vibration handling performance.

-Armadillo

sidge
July 1st, 2010, 04:32 PM
But then I thought- shoo goo ftw!

When next I take my skates apart I think I'll inject some shoe goo into the bolt holes and put the screws in while its still wet. Might be messy but should reinforce the mounting and reduce compression. Should still be possible to get the plates off - I don't think the goo will stick to metal screws very well. Should prevent them from loosening though.

I am really trying to resist the temptation to buy carbon fiber plate...