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Old April 29th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #9
SwisherTONE
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
 
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.



There are no Sure Grip plates with 45 degree kingpins - Zero, NaDa.

The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree.




Since when did high levels of turn response become a prerequisite for optimum speed plate performance and skater speed. Most serious speed skaters will disagree with this assertion, including me. I have explained this to death in other threads. Suffice it to say that a strong and full horizontal extension power stroke works more effectively on a less turn responsive plate, one where more plate tilt gives less plate turn.

The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees)



By definition, stability at speed means that slight errors in placement of the focus of weight on the skate, that tend to turn the plate away from the desired rolling line, will only trigger a limited amount of errant turn deviation from the desired track.

However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear.


SwisherTONE - and you're absolutely correct about this, thus is why I always stress paying more attention to what bushings are over your pins. Most people want to lay bushings over their Kingpins because they 'match' or they 'look pretty' (and aesthetics are fine... I love my skate gear to look hot!!) but skaters (competitive skaters) don't put enough technical emphasis on their bushing set up. It makes all the difference! Most people are riding 85A or lower duro ratings on their kingpin... there are many harder rated bushings to choose from, so that you can configure what is going to balance out your set-up and stabilize your skating on your particular build. I stress this with all the people I skate with / train, and they've all said it's made a huge difference.



When I first rolled on a 30 degree kingpin plates with a high level of turn response, I immediately perceived my skating performance and speed to have improved significantly. Then I realized it was more like my body dynamics had changed as I adapted to the more curvy shape of strokes I could now do.

It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun.

Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't.

I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
We can agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. Everything about the Avenger mimics a Speed Plate to me (it's design, it's weight, etc). Ever minor part of my indoor build and the adjustments I make to it (my bushing configuration, etc.) makes noticeable difference in the ways I'm hoping it will,when I making those adjustments. I'm not a NEWB. I've got over 2 decades under me in competitive speed skating/racing, so I think 'physical experience' and 'results' from such, will always trump what theoretical physics presumes to know or dictate.


By the way, I privately coach and train Derby players, and I'm very involved with my fiancee's team as a whole(most of you have heard me state this previously) and I 'tech' for her personally(and she's one of their most noted Jammers), and I've seen them ( the team) perform better (especially blockers/pivots) on a wider based plates (Like Artistic plates - i.e. SG Century plates, etc) with a lower degree KP (10*-17*) depending on the plate, and using a conical bushing set up with lower rated duro, than on plates like an Avenger or a Reactor or a Snyder.
Just sayin. I think it all comes down to; more than anything, to the personal preference of each skater. And that's really where all the difference lies. IMO

Much respect to ya 'dillo
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