View Single Post
Old May 7th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #93
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,338
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Then start showing us the proof. Describe this proof you claim to have more clearly.

You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.

I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.

So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.

Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.

Cough up some measurement numbers on how far you are shifting the truck location. Do some trigonometry. Take some PICs and post them.
In order to majorly alter a DA45 plate's turn response requires doing things to the suspension that will be clearly visible in a PIC.
This is what it takes to prove your assertions

If these changes can't be seen and can't be measured, then I can't take seriously your assertions that you are dramatically altering DA45 turn response in any big way. Tiny tuning ways - sure, can do; major change ways - sorry, no can do.



I was not suggesting your points were less valid because you haven't been on the Forum as long. I was only pointing out that I have been discussing how suspension geometry dictates the turning response profile of a plate, for much longer and in in more depth than you were giving me credit for.
Your suggesting I don't grasp "lean angle" was absurd, and is more an indication of your own unawareness of all the prior material that I and others members have previously posted on this subject.



You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.

Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.

Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.

-Armadillo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Then start showing us the proof. Describe this proof you claim to have more clearly.

You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.

I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.

So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.

Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.

Cough up some measurement numbers on how far you are shifting the truck location. Do some trigonometry. Take some PICs and post them.
In order to majorly alter a DA45 plate's turn response requires doing things to the suspension that will be clearly visible in a PIC.
This is what it takes to prove your assertions

If these changes can't be seen and can't be measured, then I can't take seriously your assertions that you are dramatically altering DA45 turn response in any big way. Tiny tuning ways - sure, can do; major change ways - sorry, no can do.



I was not suggesting your points were less valid because you haven't been on the Forum as long. I was only pointing out that I have been discussing how suspension geometry dictates the turning response profile of a plate, for much longer and in in more depth than you were giving me credit for.
Your suggesting I don't grasp "lean angle" was absurd, and is more an indication of your own unawareness of all the prior material that I and others members have previously posted on this subject.



You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.

Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.

Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.

-Armadillo
You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

You also wrote,
I am stating flatly that it is the GEOMETRY of the shallower action for the DA5-10-15 style plates enables them to work better for speed skaters than the GEOMETRY of the steeper action DA45 style plates, and NEITHER style plate's action GEOMETRY can be significantly altered by mere cushion or pivot adjustments. End quote.

Of course I don't see this in the earlier posts now. How much change is significant? Definition please..... This is another grey area....

Quote:
I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest. End quote

My opinion is that trucks will make a change, But significant is not a measurement either. I can say the same thing you wrote above.

Quote:
I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.
End quote:

Exaggerated results, hmm I know someone on this very forum that gets called down all the time for exaggerated results, I have only been called down for exaggerated results by you.
Photos are photos.. You can post them and everyone can look at them, so can I, and I have. However photos are not raw published data. As for results, significant might mean?? You turn left and the skate don't turn near as much as you thought it would, your wheels hit the boots and you almost go down because the skate is going one way and you another I would call that significant Been there done that...

Quote:
I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.
End Quote:

Glad we are in agreement on something....

Quote:
So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.
End quote

Oh I believe not so long ago I posted photos, and complete descriptions of how to make the changes and how to tune the D/A Invader plate to match what I am doing, you can go back and look for it if you like. I also believe I was arguing with you on this very subject at that time. And asked you to try it. You refused as far as I know. I don't need self congratulation, that is your field. I only argue against things I have tried and found to work a certain way, and when someone is trying to mislead or give false information. If I haven't tried it I haven't got anything to say about it, because I would have no opinion....

Quote:
You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.
End Quote

They are similar, however you more freedom of tuning with the D/A 45. DA5-10-15 plates, have issues when shimming, pushing the pivot pin out of the pivot cup. D/A 45 do not exhibit this issue SIGNIFICANTLY( I know grey area).

Quote:
Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.
end quote

Just how many degrees did you think you needed to make a change? I guess you published your results?
What kind of fixture did you use to place the plates in? Did you attach the angle guage to the plate, how did you measure the Angle? How much weight did you use to load the plate during the test? What hardness cushions were used? How many cushions did you test?What cushions were used for the test? What was the measured compressed height of the cushions during the test? Which SG plate did you use? What size plate did you use? Was it a stock plate(unmodified). Was the table being used leveled? What did you use to calibrate the truck for an indicator? What did you use to promote freedom of action of the trucks during measurement? What devise did you use to check the plates angle(specifically). What did you use to measure the angle of the trucks movement. Describe how you measured it? If you did it I am interested in knowing about it, You have my undivided attention....

Quote:
Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.
End quote

I know that DA5-10-15 plates design restrict what I try to do to them and there is obvious reasons for it. I did not say it was a flaw, just different design that does not lend itself to change as readily as a SG D/A 45. Doc done good.

Quote:
Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.
End quote:

I have posted pics before and the hows and whys. The explanation was very clear. You can go look for it if you want to read it again. I have never seen any set of test results, before and after from you. I know I haven't been here as long as you have but I would have heard about it by now if you did? Did you publish the data here? Post a link please. I would love to read it and scale it or graph it. Did you chart input angle and output turn radius?
You may not have anything further to add however, I am not the only person you get jammed up with about skate gear and sometimes this very subject. I do have different results with the testing I do, some not so good, as you have had in the past. But discount others creativity or mine. I am just a lowly technician, not an authority.

I will offer this however. If someone donates or loans a stock 45 style plate(maybe from a broken set) (old invader, xk something that the D/A 45 kit fits), unmodified, I will go about truly documenting and publishing stock input-output results. Results from mods + -. I do not have a spare plate at this time and don't need one so if someone has an extra from a broken set, I will pay shipping or make me a deal. I have been wanting to get this data but haven't had the time, so I will make time for the test and gathering the tools.

I guess that since you are done with this debate I will also stop muddying the thread.
fierocious1 is offline   Reply With Quote