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Old April 29th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #27
Armadillo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Hey Yogi, the SG Avenger DA45 plates were designed as a Speed/Race chasis, not a Derby plate per say, although many Derby players feel comfortable and perform well skating that plate.
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
A "Speed" plate mostly due to the degree angle of the kingpin (45*) and the really light weight of the entire chasis, as opposed to 10*-17* angle kingpin on many other plate designs. These more standard kingpin angles allow a skater to keep better balance and stability, thus I think better for Derby (especially Blockers and Pivots). Though I know a lot of Jammers who prefer the agility and sharpness that a 45* angle kingpin is characteristic of. I think you may want to reconsider the Avenger plate.
There are no Sure Grip plates with 45 degree kingpins - Zero, NaDa.

The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
It's honestly and literally the most responsive plate I've ever Raced. I was on a PowerDyne Reactor (which I think is one of the best Speed plates made), but my Avenger is much more responsive; it's lighter, and it's solid, just like the Reactor plate.

Just my 10 cents worth
Since when did high levels of turn response become a prerequisite for optimum speed plate performance and skater speed. Most serious speed skaters will disagree with this assertion, including me. I have explained this to death in other threads. Suffice it to say that a strong and full horizontal extension power stroke works more effectively on a less turn responsive plate, one where more plate tilt gives less plate turn.

The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Also...

... I must agree with JandKLarsen.
And here's something -You can control your speed stability by putting better emphasis on choosing the proper 'Bushing' durometer configurations. Not enough Quad SPeed skaters (or Derby or Artistic or others) put enough emphasis on what type of set-up they have in regards to what bushings lay over their Kingpin. 45* angled KP's are NOT 'unstable' as some is stating, they just provide a much sharper and responsive turn-ability. Now if you're Speed Skating and racing straight-away's or large oval track configurations, then you aren't worried about your cross overs or flex turns as much as if you were racing on standard rink floor specs. In any case, you can help control your stability by choosing the proper durometer rating in regards to your Bushings set-up. I use a higher duro rating Bushing at the base of the KP and a lower duro rated Bushing at the top. Depending on where I'm skating and what type of track, I'll go from a full barrel Bushing /Conical Bushing configuration, to a total full Barrel Bushing set-up (top and bottom) and I may even increase the Duro rating of the Bushings... it all depends, but it works, and it works well(for me at least). I currently race and I win races, period. My Avenger plate, with 45* KP (speaking from direct experience) is MORE responsive than my Reactors, and is extremely stable at Speed!...just as stable as the Reactor plates that I left for my Avenger plates.
By definition, stability at speed means that slight errors in placement of the focus of weight on the skate, that tend to turn the plate away from the desired rolling line, will only trigger a limited amount of errant turn deviation from the desired track.

However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
So Yogi, There's always a personal preference factor(and that's always OK), but considering the technicality of it all, I would reconsider the Avenger as a Speed plate. That's what it was made for. Don't get me wrong; there's many other good plates out there as well
When I first rolled on a 30 degree kingpin plates with a high level of turn response, I immediately perceived my skating performance and speed to have improved significantly. Then I realized it was more like my body dynamics had changed as I adapted to the more curvy shape of strokes I could now do.

It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun.

Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't.

I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
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