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Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

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Old April 14th, 2016, 06:42 PM   #1
llama of death
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Default Roll Line geometries

If so would you happen to know if I am seeing things or not, do all Roll-lines have essentially the same geometry?

If so what then would the benefit of one over the other be?

If possible could you measure the deck height (from plate top to axle center)? and the distance from center of axle as measured at a right angle to the pivot line (imaginary line from pivot pin head center to the center of the truck kingpin opening (ring)?

I had been hoping people would jump on the bandwagon in the tread I started, but nope. No interest in quantifying the geometrical differences between the plates which people have skated, too much work I guess.
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Old April 14th, 2016, 09:49 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llama of death View Post
If so would you happen to know if I am seeing things or not, do all Roll-lines have essentially the same geometry?

Yes and no. It's pretty complicated. I have covered the majority of what is going on with this in the past. I have not checked out the latest plates however, other than mounting a Killer and since it used the same standard trucks it didn't measure the king pin angle.

If so what then would the benefit of one over the other be?

The Dance and the Ring have a quicker action for the same cushion and tension thatthe "standard" Roll Line. The Matrix is a mega dollar slug. They shortened the barrel cushion (and changed the truck a bit) to get less ground clearance... I have no idea why, it's a twirly thing. All I know is that the shorter you make a cushion the quicker it chokes when you lean on it. As far as I am concerned, it is the wrong way to go with the action, and I know some derby sk8rs that agree.

If possible could you measure the deck height (from plate top to axle center)? and the distance from center of axle as measured at a right angle to the pivot line (imaginary line from pivot pin head center to the center of the truck kingpin opening (ring)?

I have no idea what that second measurement would be.. ?? I cannot visualize what you are asking.

I had been hoping people would jump on the bandwagon in the tread I started, but nope. No interest in quantifying the geometrical differences between the plates which people have skated, too much work I guess.
The problem is accurately making these measurements.. The other problem is so few people have any long term experience past one or 2 plates, (quality of the mount not withstanding) I feel their input is really not of any value. I have seen way too many sk8rs that will tell you nothing out performs the plate they prefer, no matter how big of a slug it is. It is usually a choice made for may reasons, none of them bearing on actual performance.

So why not just ask me what you want to know. Yes, my opinion is biased as to what I like but that does not influence a comparison of how X performs compared to Y.

Remember I have plates most folks have never sk8ed, much less seen in real life. I don't sk8 them all regularly, but I certainly can refresh my memory if needed.
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Old April 16th, 2016, 07:37 AM   #3
llama of death
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TBH, I am interested in the dance and ring more if they have ANY reputation as having good turning for skating the loops with control but have the action required to change edges well. But as I am attempting to correlate geometry of the plate to common experiences.

Example: The deck height of an Avenger is much higher than that of a Proline. The Avenger is often described as being almost too willing to turn, to the point of occasional instability. Due to how commonly this is written the assumption can be made that this is not just the faulty opinion of a few laymen skaters but is in fact a property of the plate (albeit one that can be adjusted for and overcome). The Proline however has no such reputation and instead has a low pin angle, a medium AoA, and a relatively low deck height, any of which may be leading to the plate being commonly described as stable, but willing to turn (not necessarily slug).


I am attempting to quantify the geometries and see if they align with the "feelings" most skaters get on any given plate and cushion set up.

Though TBH I am not sure if this data will pan out, but I am collecting and placing as much of it as I can into that thread for future reference. If for example I where to see a pattern of high Height of Deck (HoD) relating to less "ramp up", or even to "squirlyness" I would have confirmed one of many of my hypothesis.

Hopefully this diagram will better explain the measurements I seek:
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Last edited by llama of death; April 16th, 2016 at 08:44 AM.
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Old June 28th, 2016, 12:20 AM   #4
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If I may, i skated on mistral and dance with the exact same mount, the dance is clearly lower deck.
As for kingpin angle, the standard line : variant/blaster, mariner,mistral,energy is around 20 degrees. If I understood well, db12/evo have less angle on the rear kingpin . Since killer is based on these plates, I guess it's the same on killer. It seems that this insure better stability on jump reception and rear spin. It might be around 15/18 degrees on the rear.
Dance, ring and spin have more angle, not 30, but maybe around 25. It sure turn more than the mistral, and as it's lower, you get wheel bite more easily .
But I ride them with very firm yellow cushions, so my experience would be very different than Doc's, who like his plates full action.
I used to ride on clear cushions set "loose" (that's when I got wheel bite with 64mm wheels), but I feel like I can't get a proper energy feedback when accelerating with such setting... they use the same cushions as the standard line btw, but not the same trucks I think.
I never ride avengers so I can't tell which one is more turny, stable, or reliable. But Dance are for sure a lot lower.
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Old June 29th, 2016, 05:53 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by JorisKB View Post
If I may, i skated on mistral and dance with the exact same mount, the dance is clearly lower deck.
As for kingpin angle, the standard line : variant/blaster, mariner,mistral,energy is around 20 degrees.

Last time I measured, my Variant, Mistral, Driver, Navigator, Raffaello and Giotto were all 15. This is measured with a protractor to determine the angle off vertical of the king pin.

If I understood well, db12/evo have less angle on the rear kingpin . Since killer is based on these plates, I guess it's the same on killer.

I have mounted a Killer. It sure did not look like anything out of the ordinary. I swapped some Variant trucks on to it and they lined right up. Granted that is not a real test, just a casual observation.

It seems that this insure better stability on jump reception and rear spin. It might be around 15/18 degrees on the rear.

Got no idea. Too rich for my blood and quite frankly I despise dual geometry plates.

Dance, ring and spin have more angle, not 30, but maybe around 25.

Close, I measured my Rings @ 22.5.

It sure turn more than the mistral, and as it's lower, you get wheel bite more easily .

True that. I didn't like it's feel as much after rolling it for a while. Someting about the combo of lower plate and increase in king pin angle... Never really settled in to the plate, and I tried it on 3 different boots. Went back to the Giotto.

But I ride them with very firm yellow cushions, so my experience would be very different than Doc's, who like his plates full action.

You got that right I cannot even make a Roll Line with yellows turn.

I used to ride on clear cushions set "loose" (that's when I got wheel bite with 64mm wheels), but I feel like I can't get a proper energy feedback when accelerating with such setting... they use the same cushions as the standard line btw, but not the same trucks I think.

I never ride avengers so I can't tell which one is more turny, stable, or reliable. But Dance are for sure a lot lower.

The Avenger is far more turny than a Roll Line of any flavor. That is strictly due to the ratio of plate lean to axle swing, something that no amount of cushion tuning can change.

Stable comes from the sk8r and their ability to tune the sk8 and sk8 it. I don't really find any plate to be unstable unless it is adjusted improperly.

Reliable?? The Roll Line come as close to indestructible as anything I have ever seen. I have seen some minor issues with the Avengers over the years.

However, the standard Roll Line has a much more subtle feel than any other DA plate except the early Cleveland 200s which have a tall barrel / short cone modification which is much like the Roll Line. The Crazy Venus and the Lugino Falcon + come close, but all of those use a sleeved king pin with a cushion protruding into the truck yoke. I converted my Pro Lines to use the Crazy barrel cushions which fit into the truck... It did change the feel a bit but I think more than a 5 king pin is necessary to get the desired effect.

However as was previously pointed out, my sk8ing objectives are far different than JorisKB's..... As usual YMMV.

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Old July 7th, 2016, 11:46 PM   #6
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Something I usualy say when one ask about kingpin angle and stability, I compare this with quick cooking pasta.
A standard 15-20 is like standard 8minutes pasta, a 30 plate like the avenger is more like a 3 minutes pasta.

If you leave them in the boiling water for 30 extra seconds by mistake, it will be no big deal for 8 minutes pasta, but it could be dramatic for 3 minutes pasta.
(works with rice too).

I'll try to mesure angles next time I have Killers passing by.
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