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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates. |
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#61 | |
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Location: Texas
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#62 | |
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#63 | |
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#64 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
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The flex & recoil effect of the pole vaulters fiberglass pole clearly allows him to transfer more of his horizontal energy into vertically lifting his body mass. There are many similar situations where this is true. The elasticity of muscles and tendons allows running animals to deliver more power with their effort and reach higher speeds, because flexing allows energy to be recycled better than stiff does What elevates a springboard diver higher? -- bouncing on a stiff diving board or a flexible one. Old people use golf clubs that flex more, because the flex helps the their slower swings still deliver more energy to the ball than a stiff club does. So, in these cases at least, your hypothesis is proven wrong. -Armadillo
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#65 |
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
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We're talking about Speed Skating.. lol. Stiffer ALWAYS transfers energy faster more directly, and more efficiently. We're not talking about comfort or how relaxing a skate can feel, we're discussing energy transfer. I didn't make up the laws of Physics... not my fault. hehehehe
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#66 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Springfield Missouri
Posts: 7
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Yes I agree with Dillo, the rebound of objects helps to conserve energy, but that's what trucks are for right? they move and rebound more or less depending on how tight they are. The plate is there to keep the trucks supported and stable.
Plastic flexes VERY well but has little resistance. Nylon is in the middle between plastic and aluminum. flex and reactivity seem to go hand in hand. plastic returns to its original shape slowly compared to aluminum. and with the amount of force put down into a particular step by a larger individual a stronger material is needed for efficient energy transfer. When you're speed skating you don't have time for your plate to keep up with you. ![]() Oh and I have tried many different configurations with those DA45 trucks and no matter what I do, (harder/ softer cushions, tighter/looser trucks) I can't get comfortable on them at speed. Basically all this mumbo jumbo comes down to what YOU like as a skater. |
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#67 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
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I realize that you can alter the DA45 turning response a small amount by doing what you are suggesting, but this kind of tweak does not make a DA45 have a turn response that is anything even close to a shallow action angle DA5-10-15 true speed plate. It is you that does not understand the concept of turning response -- the ratio of the plate lean angle to the amount of truck swing angle that results from that amount of plate lean. This has little to do with how hard or easy you adjust the suspension or how much you choose tweak the pivot pin & cushion stack height . You can only go so far skewing the truck platform away from 90 degrees to the kingpin, and only so far with shifting the truck hole away from being centered on the kingpin. So give me a break with all the magic pivot pin adjustment hype, as if it can be used to produce a total plate makeover. It can't I have been doing these exact same kinds of pivot pin tweaks with Chicago Panther trucks for over five years already, and trying them on a wide variety of different style plates too. No doubt I have tried using them with more frakenplate testing setups than just about anyone. So I do get the picture of what you are up to with your DA45 pivot tweaks. Just because I am not as impressed as you are with the limited level of performance alteration that this approach can accomplish, is no reason to assume I don't understand the process. Anyone can stiffen up or free up most suspensions, but even fiddling with the pivot pin is still not going to allow you to convert a DA45 action geometry into a DA5-10-15 action geometry. You are dreaming if you think this is possible. The freedom of the action can be messed with quite a bit on any style of plate, but the GEOMETRY of the action can only be marginally altered. I am stating flatly that it is the GEOMETRY of the shallower action for the DA5-10-15 style plates enables them to work better for speed skaters than the GEOMETRY of the steeper action DA45 style plates, and NEITHER style plate's action GEOMETRY can be significantly altered by mere cushion or pivot adjustments. Totally changing a plate's trucks to ones with a much different shape CAN significantly alter the plate's action angle by shifting the height on the kingpin where the truck hole crosses it, but even this radical approach has narrow limits as to how much change can be produced. I have built, tested, and skated enough on DA45 plates to know what they can do, and to know how well and how poorly they fulfill various skate performance requirements. I think they make a great skates for derby and session, and if I skated derby or sessions seriously, I would no doubt prefer the DA45 for that type of skating. What I skating I do take seriously is speed skating, and for me The semi-DA15 Laser Slider setup is what I prefer. At some point I will spend some more time rolling on a DA45 setup, but I do not expect to be that surprised or thrilled by anything they do performance wise for which I am not already familiar. -Armadillo
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Rollin' on AIR Last edited by Armadillo; May 5th, 2012 at 06:21 AM. |
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#68 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,335
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What I skating I do take seriously is speed skating, and for me The semi-DA15 Laser Slider setup is what I prefer. At some point I will spend some more time rolling on a DA45 setup, but I do not expect to be that surprised or thrilled by anything they do performance wise for which I am not already familiar.
-Armadillo[/QUOTE] LOL! Finally! You may not be surprised but you will be enlightened. Speculation is not fact. Photos will not show everything. A few thousands of an inch will not be caught on camera. |
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#69 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,335
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I am stating flatly that it is the GEOMETRY of the shallower action for the DA5-10-15 style plates enables them to work better for speed skaters than the GEOMETRY of the steeper action DA45 style plates, and NEITHER style plate's action GEOMETRY can be significantly altered by mere cushion or pivot adjustments.
-Armadillo[/QUOTE]o BS, The geometry can be changed. That is the point you don't get, You are so used to the non-D/A 45 not lending itself to adjustability. It doesn't take much change on the D/A 45 to see the difference, that it can be altered. Don't believe it, fine by me. But don't claim things to be fact when you haven't explored it. Speculation is usually before testing, an unknown. Cushions themselves can be changed to affect the pivot angle thus changing the mechanical response of the plate, making the trucks turn more or less with X(same) input angle. I have been doing these exact same kinds of pivot pin tweaks with Chicago Panther trucks for over five years already, and trying them on a wide variety of different style plates too. No doubt I have tried using them with more frakenplate testing setups than just about anyone. So I do get the picture of what you are up to with your DA45 pivot tweaks. -Armadillo[/QUOTE] Pivot angle is not a fixed value in 99% of all skates, if you don't understand that you have serious problems grasping what is fact. The only plate out there that I know of that the angle cannot be changed in is the Micro Star(maybe a couple more I don't know of), it is absolutely fixed. Testing is what you need and lots of it, outside the box testing.... Last edited by fierocious1; May 4th, 2012 at 12:49 PM. |
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#70 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,335
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As long as you make absolute statements about things that you haven't thoroughly proven up on, I am personally going to call you hand on it. You may back up your claims on non D/A45 stuff if you like, whatever.... But you have not backed up D/A45 claims thoroughly enough to be an authority on the subject, your claims above reflect this. I am sure I am not the only person here that sees the discrepancies in your claims. Talk about what you know, not an opinion based on ideas only. I will call you on it every time this comes up , you can count on it.
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#71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 5,719
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Armadillo said:
... "What I skating I do take seriously is speed skating, and for me The semi-DA15 Laser Slider setup is what I prefer. At some point I will spend some more time rolling on a DA45 setup, but I do not expect to be that surprised or thrilled by anything they do performance wise for which I am not already familiar." Quote:
It is great that you are a sufficiently perceptive and skilled enough skater to be able to register the effects of these fine tuning tweaks, but they do not qualify as major turn response makeovers. -Armadillo
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#72 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
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Take out your upper cushions and put in 1 cushion of your choice, D/A only sized, fill the rest of the space with nylon washers. Minus about .015 of total cushion height, then tell me you haven't made a change that is significant, depleting some of your "kickback"...... So you can stand back three feet away and see .015 difference with the naked eye? The measurement is the shim thickness added or removed, measurable. One revolution on the adjustment nut moves the truck more than.001.... Last edited by fierocious1; May 4th, 2012 at 06:49 PM. |
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#73 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
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-Armadillo said:
"...I am stating flatly that it is the GEOMETRY of the shallower action for the DA5-10-15 style plates enables them to work better for speed skaters than the GEOMETRY of the steeper action DA45 style plates, and NEITHER style plate's action GEOMETRY can be significantly altered by mere cushion or pivot adjustments... " Quote:
By just placing your weight on your skate you will change the action's pivoting angle. It will become shallower as the truck tilts upward a bit from your weight load on it. No big deal though, and not going to alter the skates performance profile noticeably. You can even stretch your DA45 adjustable pivot pin out to the max, and place the necessary taller cushion (or spacer) above the truck. If the truck's cushion platform remains near 90 degrees to the kingpin, and the truck hole stays near to centered around the kingpin, then the trucks pivoting angle is not going to be altered very much at all. You will certainly raise the deck height significantly, which can be a good thing to resolve wheel bite, but there is no way you can consider this pivot tweaking to be a major alteration of the plate action's pivoting angle -- it remains effectively a DA45, or a DA 44.5 or a DA 46 or a DA44..... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -Armadillo said: "...I have been doing these exact same kinds of pivot pin tweaks with Chicago Panther trucks for over five years already, and trying them on a wide variety of different style plates too. No doubt I have tried using them with more frakenplate testing setups than just about anyone. So I do get the picture of what you are up to with your DA45 pivot tweaks..." Quote:
That being said, you need to realize that when a plate is designed and the choices for the plates style of action geometry are made, this absolutely does make the action's pivoting angle "fixed" ==> FIXED WITHIN NARROW LIMITS I am not denying that you have the ability to play around within this available, but limited, range of DA45 suspension tweaking wiggle room, but I suggest you going way overboard in exaggerating the degree of DA45 plate performance changing results that can be accomplished within the DA45 design imposed physical limits of this range. The trucks' cushion platforms need to be maintained at near 90 degrees to the kingpins. How far from this optimum setup are you willing to skew the cushion platform? This requirement, combined with the limited amount of pivot pin extension, is what what dictates the "fixed" limits for your range of tweaking the DA45 pivoting angle. Skewing the cushion platform away from 90 degrees by more than 2 or, at the extreme, 3 degree starts to have a detrimental effect on action smoothness. How few pivot pin threads are you willing to leave engaged in the truck as you extend it out to the max? So, let's assume that with a max of about 2.5 degree of shift of the trucks pivoting angle you have the ability to alter the performance of the plates to reach. a 42.5 degree pivoting angle. This only brings you roughly 10-12% of the way toward matching the pivoting angle of what a DA10 true speed plate has for a pivoting angle. This is certainly a detectable difference, but it still leaves the DA45 plate performance a being 88-90% matching the DA45 action that it retains, and only 10-12% shifted in the direction of how a shallower action DA10 performs. Bottom Line: Using skewing of the truck cushion platform as a way to gain significant changes in a plates turning response profile, is only going to alter plate performance by a limited amount. -Armadillo
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#74 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
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If he thinks that the turning response (ratio of plate lean to resulting truck swing), can be significantly changed one way or the other by suspension tuning, then I will retreat from my argument with you. The geometry numbers do not add up for supporting what you suggest is possible, at least not the way I tally them up. So far most of what I have seen coming from you on this topic are primarily just based on on your very subjective skating experiences as you make these DA45 suspension tweaks. Not suggesting they aren't valid reflections of your experience, just that they are too subjective. -Armadillo
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#75 |
Locutus of QUORG!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2,290
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it is about who is at the end of the line first.
And what is the most common question asked before and after a race? What wheels are you using or did use. Very rarely do people attribute peoples success to the plates they are running. They attribute other peoples success to their fitness, strength, form and then to wheel selection. People say, "wow that guy/gal is fit." "he/she is a strong skater" "gee, they have nice form/style" ""man those wheels roll" So just get out there and skate guys.
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We are the QUORG! You will be assimiskated. Skating Inlines is Futile! Colin Coakes, Wollongong, NSW, Australia |
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#76 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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-Armadillo
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#77 | |
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Location: Texas
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#78 | |
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A lot of the stuff you mention above, I didn't imply, like changing the geometry from one to another. Pivot angle is another subject, and it does have drastic affects and can be manipulated with skate gear that lends itself to the mods. Ther is one very obvious property of the D/A setup that you overlook. The one statement you should make, you don't. Not anywhere is the statement I am looking for from you. So you don't know as much as you claim. Understanding plate lean angle is the most important part of what I tune for.... Sorry you didn't get that either( I have repeated it numerous times in our discussions. And no I'm not giving you a clue. Doc knows, I didn't get it from him either, I figured it out on my own. As long as you aren't testing it you will not know. |
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#79 |
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
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I've never heard anyone witness a bad race performance and wonder about the plates the racer was using. lol
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#80 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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You cannot keep the truck hole properly centered on the kingpin while simultaneously altering the truck's pivoting angle, from changing the height of stuff that is stacked up on the kingpin (nuts, washers, retainers, truck, cushions...), without also adjusting the pivot pin to match the amount that the truck has been shifted. If the truck's pivoting angle gets significantly changed by altering the stack height, then the truck must also end up being significantly shifted in its position relative to the plate. Any time the truck significantly shifts its position relative to the plate, the pivot pin needs to be adjusted. If you skip this step the pivot ball will either be jammed to tight, or rattling around, inside the pivot cup. Chicago Panther DA10 plates with fully adjustable pivot pin trucks are just as tunable for their action pivoting angle as your DA45 plates are. I have lots of cushions to play around with. I have lots of sizes and thicknesses of retainers, washers and spacers to alter the cushion platform height, which also alters the truck pivoting angle. I can make custom height cushions to control the exact place, heightwise, that the truck sits on the kingpin relative to the plate. I know very well what can, and what cannot, be accomplished within the constraints of this kind of action tweaking. My approach it to max out these changes to the two opposite and extreme ends of the tweak range, to see what is possible, and then after seeing what things feel like at both ends of this range limit., only then do I start targeting the for sweet spot, which I seem to find faster this way. The turning response profile of any plate can only be marginally altered by this approach of stacking more or less stuff above the kingpin (and resetting the adjustable pivot pin to match this change of the truck's location). -Armadillo
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