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Outdoor Quads Discussions about outdoor quad skates and any discussion relatd to skating on quad roller skatse outdoors.

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Old May 3rd, 2016, 01:21 AM   #21
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Do' we've been over the small slices on the wheels urethane several times, one "actual" skater had a wheel slice years ago, no one since, it's hogwash, the large hub small amount of urethane has an effect that's different than a small hub lots of urethane, wheel, in roll lines case, because of superior urethane, yes, it seems stiffer than the 82a it is but it grips like 77a urethane, jury's out.
Less wheel squish is less energy lost, the helium is a superior wheel because it has a precision hub, weighs nothing, great urethane and most important, doesn't take 16mm outside diameter bearings, but takes 22mm bearings, meaning ceramic.
Yes it's a 64mm wheel, and the op should start with a smaller wheel, but water under the bridge.
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Old May 4th, 2016, 04:26 AM   #22
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Ugh.

Roll line heliums SUCK. DO NOT BUY THOSE OVERPRICED PIECES OF CRAP.
Atom poison wides, at 62mm tall 44mm wide(which is far from a goood width/height) make the roll lines look like playskool trash. No joke.

As for cutting of thinner urethane, yea it is more likely, but ya just gotta stay away from glass. I had to dig out glass from my Poisons once. The urethane is fairly thick on them and even with the wider wheel displacing weight more than a narrow wheel, it still got cut. It happens. Your outdoors, its going to happen eventually. Hopefully tjough ita not on the edge wjere it makes the wheel split and chunk out.

Ceramics bearings are an infinitely over rated, pricey piece of hogwash. Save your money for more important aspects of skating, like boots, plates, wheels, more bearings, cushions, new laces etc.

I have not seen anyone in this(posted so far) thread skate first hand. So take their mention of anything portraying to skill with a heavy grain of salt. Everyone falls, everyone gets hurt. The only thing I can say with confidence is that most "skaters" keyboarding skill usually exceeds their skating skill.


If theres some derby skaters in your area, go to a practice, see if they have some atom poisons (preferably slim/narrow) that are used, or that they will sell for cheap. Great outdoor wheel for a used price. Im in the market for outdoor wheels as well (hopefully better than the poisons I typically roll), will probably buy up some Atom road hogs. Its in the top of whats available, even considering longboard wheels. Atoms urethane is very good. Their hubs for indoor derby and heavier skaters arent stellar though lots of people have had problems with them. But outdoors, a little hub distortion wont break ya.
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Old May 4th, 2016, 12:36 PM   #23
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Oh Trom,
You could have had the perfect inept trifecta, you could have trashed bones speed creme(the best roll line product), what a missed opportunity.

The guy that insists the foot should be put into a boot with no insole (much less orthotic), and insists one must wear thick cotton socks (opposite of reality) and then instead of mounting a quad plate offset to the outside of the foot (for proper balance) mounts it not in the center like an inline plate but inside of center, like an idiot, but hey it's trom, just invoke forum rule #1

Just ignore Trom

(but trom baiting is funny)
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Old May 4th, 2016, 04:09 PM   #24
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Oh Trom,
You could have had the perfect inept trifecta, you could have trashed bones speed creme(the best roll line product), what a missed opportunity.

The guy that insists the foot should be put into a boot with no insole (much less orthotic), and insists one must wear thick cotton socks (opposite of reality) and then instead of mounting a quad plate offset to the outside of the foot (for proper balance) mounts it not in the center like an inline plate but inside of center, like an idiot, but hey it's trom, just invoke forum rule #1

Just ignore Trom

(but trom baiting is funny)
Your such an idiot Mike. You want schooled on reality again, fine.

Bones speed cream is just a very light viscosity grease, that all. It is not some magical unicorn approved lube. Its snake oil. They call it a cream and market it like the rest of their BS crap. "Skate rated" nonsense. They publish no grease or oil lubricating properties that you can test lubricants on, and have no data that they have a superior product only shows how inferior it really is.

Bones bearings The fact that they assert ABEC ratings dont apply to bearings for skating is just their way of saying we dont need precision gear, and that its likely their bearings wouldn't rate very well if at all on an ABEC scale if they even did posess the tolerances(maybe their swiss line which is supposedly notade in china). Bones bearings simply copied the looser tolerances of old fafnirs that had the C7 clearances. What that does is give slop to the assebly and increase free spin, mainly due to the rest of our skate gear being so untrue.

Insoles
Where do you get that I don't use anything inside my boot? I dont use traditional insoles, no. You forget I worked at a rubber plant doing testing on our stocks and had access to splitting machines and high density neoprene foam(ANR bun stock 451 and 4319). I slit the rubber to .187 thickness(.125 too thin and .250 too thick) and used it inside my boots. If you have unfit feet orthodics are a bandaid, all one should need is an appropriate amount of cushioning. None of this nonsense arch support. Walk barefoot more, and strengthen the best suspension you'll ever own. Your feet. Wait it must be because Im from West Virginia right? Hillbillies have tough feet so we dont know the comfort of a shoe right?

Oh yea, and the slit neoprene offered a great grip interface with the cotton socks too.

Socks
I use cotton socks because they work. We have been over this before, a couple times actually.

Cotton has a better friction interface than almost all other socks(cant say ALL, as I have not tied every sock out there). Synthetic fibers tend to slip inside footwear. Rolling your feet around inside your boots will wear them out. The reasons so many people have problems with cotton socks is they are made for a VERY large range of foot sizes. Such as 6-12 adult mens foot sizes for the socks I wear. Guess what size my foot is? 12. The socks work because IT FITS. With athletic socks they also have the same range, usually, but like I said before they slip... ALOT. Additionally cotton absorbs moisture, we all know that right? Those athletic socks are ususally hydrophobic, so they don't. Well where do you think your foots sweat is going to go? Into the boot, along with salts and oils from your body. The moisture from your feet sweating will not make it through the leather and it damn sure wont ventilate out of the boot. Wicking doesn't mean its going to push the moisture out against gravity. It pulls the moisture off your skin and to the outside of the material.

If your going to be in your skates over 3 hours its best to change your socks.

The key is to buy a sock that is almost too small, so you get the snuggest fit.

I ALWAYS wash my feet very well before skating, and ALWAYS wear clean cotton socks that fit tight. Sorry your not as lucky as I am. But thats your problem

Plate mounting

Here we go again. They are mounted like my inlines, as well as in a way to enhance the way I skate. People(most) naturally stand with a slight outward pointing of the toes right? So if you put a plate under someone standing still and wanted them to roll straight, the plates would be ever so slightly toe in and heel out.

Whats more is my axles are very far forward, and if I followed the "traditional" or in your ignorance, the "correct mount" ideal, this would put too much leverages on my inside edge when doing front axle work and not enough leverage on the outside edge, where the foot is naturally weaker.

The slight "toe in/heel out" I use also increases my maximum speed by providing a better lateral push opportunity through the strongest part of my stride. My plate is aligned for me, and I dont care if anyone else can skate it. Most people who habe skated my setup cannot make it turn either, but thats their problem not mine as its NOT THEIR SKATE.

In closing, its kinda like this. Just because YOU cannot, does not mean I cannot.

Edit:
Orthodics suck. Read on

http://sock-doc.com/unnecessary-orthotics/
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Old May 7th, 2016, 06:24 PM   #25
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A preference is a preference is a preference...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
If you have unfit feet orthodics are a bandaid, all one should need is an appropriate amount of cushioning. None of this nonsense arch support. Walk barefoot more, and strengthen the best suspension you'll ever own. Your feet.
I walk/run in minimal/reduced footwear (running doesn't have to be minimal if you have joint issues) and can say that there is nothing that will strengthen your feet/stabilizers and improve your gait more than proper conditioning of your feet and ankles through natural movement.

Quote:
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Edit:
Orthodics suck. Read on

http://sock-doc.com/unnecessary-orthotics/
Yeah... I've gone in circles with people on this one, orthotics should generally not be worn for "normal" use case scenarios and should be reserved for cases where the patient is debilitated beyond rehabilitation...
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Old May 7th, 2016, 07:16 PM   #26
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A preference is a preference is a preference...

Yea, and somehow people turn preference into gospel, with very little understanding of the whole picture of what is going on.


I walk/run in minimal/reduced footwear (running doesn't have to be minimal if you have joint issues) and can say that there is nothing that will strengthen your feet/stabilizers and improve your gait more than proper conditioning of your feet and ankles through natural movement.

yeap, and even running has form, 2 people identical weight, feet everything can have drastically different stress applied to their joints

Yeah... I've gone in circles with people on this one, orthotics should generally not be worn for "normal" use case scenarios and should be reserved for cases where the patient is debilitated beyond rehabilitation...
Yeap, totally agree. An orthodic is to replace something that cannot be fixed through proper conditioning. Such as a deformity, or injury causing a severe limit to ones physical capability.
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Old May 8th, 2016, 01:00 AM   #27
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Thinking Peter principal, but if yer happy, nothing matters,. (To you)

So having proper foot support is out. Orthotic

And friction, heat is good, keeping the foot stuck is good, not that friction isn't heat, but hey, if yer already not properly supported, what's a little heat?

Peter it is
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Old May 8th, 2016, 05:37 AM   #28
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Thinking Peter principal, but if yer happy, nothing matters,. (To you)

So having proper foot support is out. Orthotic

And friction, heat is good, keeping the foot stuck is good, not that friction isn't heat, but hey, if yer already not properly supported, what's a little heat?

Peter it is
Your an idiot. > Despite being shown many times factual information you continue to ramble on

The foot is the bodys SUPPORT STRUCTURE. Its made to take loads, but if its in poor condition, say like an cosmonauts bones in outerspace. They become weak from not being used. The same is going to happen from a foot that is TOO supported. Our feet are our crutches, they dont need crutches. (As pointed out earlier there are some individuals with physical limitations which cause exceptions)


As for friction, we have been over this.

I want the boot to become part of my skin as much as possible, this means LOTS of friction interface between my foots skin, the sock, as well as the boot and the sock. The more friction tue less likelyhood there will be any slippage. Understand?

Also heat is the byproduct of friction during a movement of 2 objects, be it rotors and disk brakes or our feet and the boot. Its actually a lack of friction and uneven pressure distribution that causes a slip, and that causes accelerated wear and blisters .

Ir you like your insoles /inserts, good, thats your thing. However its not going to help anyone by recommending old "dodo" solutions for people that dont need them in the first place.

I know of NO person other than you who wears slippery socks and puts lotion on their feet to go skate. If thats what ya like, whatever, do it all ya want. Just dont act like it what people need.

So peter principal indeed. Just keep handing out those bandaids, and tell everyone itll help them when there was no real wound to begin with.
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Old May 8th, 2016, 06:40 AM   #29
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I want the boot to become part of my skin as much as possible, this means LOTS of friction interface between my foots skin, the sock, as well as the boot and the sock. The more friction tue less likelyhood there will be any slippage. Understand?

Also heat is the byproduct of friction during a movement of 2 objects, be it rotors and disk brakes or our feet and the boot. Its actually a lack of friction and uneven pressure distribution that causes a slip, and that causes accelerated wear and blisters .
One thing I'd like to add to this is that if you're slipping anyway, extra friction is going to cause a mad blister.

How did we get on the topic of orthotics anyway??? What's going to help for rougher surfaces is extra padding and/or shock absorption, not rigid support... EDIT: besides suspension, plate action, wheel hardness/diameter, etc...
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Old May 8th, 2016, 11:41 AM   #30
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Snap
I again would advise the op to ignore the trash talk and advice unless of course he's a delusional, short, fat old man that can't articulate his ankles and trolls around on skate log.
Inlines are great for speed, quads are great for fun, anyone posing on quads pretending they have the accomplishments of an inline speed skater, is simply trolling.
Bad advice, right, show us your two broken shoulders due to ineptitude, and a broken wrist, again due to ineptitude, and hopefully no others have broken bones following delusional advice.
Anyway, hopefully the op will sort out the bs and delusional ranting from reality.
Character assassination is the sign of nothing else available to back up your bogus assertions, which looking at them would inform most people who the real troll is here.

I have EVIDENCE for my assertions that Helium wheels are a poor outdoor wheel choice - 16 wheels with higher mileage ones ALL showing progressive premature degradation from excessive cuts and progressive debonding.
Since so much hot air is pouring out of ursle's oversize mouth lately, I am forced to document these wheels with fresh PICs, which when soon posted will put a plug in it said mouth and stop the flow of spew.

People, just search all posts by ursle and notice there is NEVER a PIC or two to back up what is asserted. Then look at my posts from the past. SLF is about sharing accurate and useful info, not trash talk. We can spot the real troll here if we look.

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Old May 8th, 2016, 01:30 PM   #31
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One thing I'd like to add to this is that if you're slipping anyway, extra friction is going to cause a mad blister.

True, then it would seem either the boot is a poor fit or not broken in to the skaters foot yet.

How did we get on the topic of orthotics anyway??? What's going to help for rougher surfaces is extra padding and/or shock absorption, not rigid support... EDIT: besides suspension, plate action, wheel hardness/diameter, etc...
That dude is always stirring up s#!7. The only reason I even acknowledge his posts is so some poor soul doesn't go buying needless items.
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Old May 8th, 2016, 02:31 PM   #32
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Yes, all my posts are trying to sell dinar, or are denying reality, and friction in the skate boot is good, sorry, I don't suffer fools.
But I will always stop the stupidity from spreading, yer welcome.

Muscle strength in shod, minimalist and foot orthotic wearing runners
by Craig Payne on September 8, 2014 in Foot Orthotics


There is plenty of the usual propaganda and rhetoric about foot orthotics weakening muscles in the crankosphere blogosphere, therefore they are evil: Truth or lie?

I already addressed the issue of running shoes weakening muscles (they don’t); but that has not stopped the fan boys still claiming that they do. What about foot orthotics? What does the actual evidence or research say?

Firstly, here is a study that one of my Honours student, Mitch Daoud did a couple of years ago that we won’t be submitting for publication for a reason I will come back to. We recruited three groups of runners: a running shoe wearing group; a running shoe and foot orthotic wearing group; and a barefoot/minimalist group. A number of muscle strength tests were done on them: hallux and lessor toe plantarflexion strength, ankle inversion and dorsiflexion strength using several trials of a hand held dynamometer; and calf muscle endurance (using a validated measure of heel raises in time with a metronome). With the exception of the last measure, all were normalized to body weight.

Mitch was blinded as to which group the runner was in when doing the muscle strength testing to avoid the potential for any preconceived biases. Here are the results:

mitch

As you can see, the foot orthotic group was the strongest in almost all of the parameters. That surprised even me and was not what we were expecting. The minimalist group does appear to be stronger than the shod group. Even more surprising was the foot orthotic group scored the highest in the calf muscle endurance. I would have thought that the barefoot/minimalist group would have been higher, when it was the lowest! Not the remotest hint of foot orthotics weakening muscles.

Now for the problem and why we are not going to try and publish the data. There were only 4 subjects in the minimalist/barefoot group (and it can’t escape our attention that a lot of fan boys have no problems with a group size of 4 when they see a study they like!). As hard as we tried, we just could not recruit any more in the time frame that is an undergraduate project. Simply, there are just not that many people doing the barefoot/minimalist thing out in the real world compared to their high visibility in social media (minimalist shoe sales have now fallen to around only 3-5% of the running shoe market). The numbers are just not there and I guess we were mislead into believing we could find more due to the prominence of it in social media.

Having said that, the data is worth putting out there in this blog post for people to make of it what they will. It is pretty clear that even though there is only 4 in the minimalist/barefoot group, the orthotic group is stronger, so there are clearly not the remotest hint of a trend towards the foot orthotic group being weaker and the barefoot/minimalsiut group being stronger as the rhetoric and propaganda from the fan boys would have us believe.

Secondly, the data above is also consistent with ALL the other studies on foot orthotics and muscle strength. I just do not get why the fan boys choose to actually ignore what the evidence actually says and just plain make things up when they make their public pronouncements. This is not new evidence; its been around for a while now:

Mayer et al (2007) showed an increase in calf muscle strength in the orthotic wearing group. The increase in calf muscle strength in the orthotic wearing group is consistent with the data in our study above; though I am unclear on an actual mechanism.
Jung et al (2011) showed an increase in intrinsic muscle strength in the foot orthotic wearing group
Our other study (2005) showed no weakness after 4 weeks of foot orthotic use (there was actually a statistically non-significant increase in strength)
These are not cherry picked studies. It is them all. I will update this post the minute any new research on this topic is available, whatever its results. Why do those espousing the rhetoric and propaganda choose to ignore the evidence (hence the image at the top of the post)? Even worse, why do they continue o do it even after the above research is pointed out to them?

As always, I go where the evidence takes me until convinced otherwise, … and I am a slave to the data: Truth or lie? … you be the judge.

1. Thanks to Robert Issacs for sharing the image!

Last updated by Craig Payne.

Last edited by ursle; May 8th, 2016 at 03:44 PM.
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Old May 8th, 2016, 07:51 PM   #33
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An undergrad survey? Seriously? An "honors student"?

And why would anyone be surprised by an orthodic group having slightly stronger calfs? This is because the calf has to do more work. Im not suprised in the least. This comparison is without good data, such as muscle mass, density, lifestyle information, runners actual running performances, the list goes on.

Just because a muscle has strength output does not make it better either.

There are loads of people I have worked with over the years who can bench press 2x more than me at max press, and ill work them into the dirt doing the same job that requires upper body strength where a good bench press would help. Why is that? Obviously theres more to it than muscle strengths.

Poor amounts of data and examples, good try though.
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Old May 8th, 2016, 10:07 PM   #34
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Default Heliums suck outdoors on rough/stoney surfaces & debond from hub too easily

Here are two sets of Heliums - one set rolled 100% outdoors 300+ miles and one set rolled mostly indoors. The cuts in outdoor set urethane are more visible in person than in the PICs.

Note how the too-thin amount of urethane causes it to be over stressed, especially around the hub's protruding lateral lock ring, where the glowing neon blue-green color indicates debonding.

If the urethane is bonded, the orange orange color of the hub shows through the transparent urethane. If the urethane debonds, the air layer that forms causes internal reflections and the "glowing" blue-green color.

Both the indoor and outdoor wheels show developing debonding, more so with the outdoor ones, where a few show hub protruding ring debonded all the way around the wheel.

Indoor wheel set debonding is mainly on sides of the protruding ring, which does not much alter performance until the debond zone climbs up and over the top of the rib.

The outdoor wheel all show a high concentration of cuts, with some very large and deep right over the protruding ring.





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Old May 9th, 2016, 01:57 PM   #35
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All my heliums are yellow hub, those must be hydrogen, a softer compound, lesson learned
Don't see any mention of them (hydrogen) possibly discontinued because of lack of sales.
If yer done with those wheels someone else may have a use, they look perfectly roll-able

IF you HAVE to skate on rough roads, adding padding underneath the foot isn't the cure, the foam is only going to add friction, a hard orthotic, molded to your foot is going to allow all your weight to be supported all the time, think microscopically, better balance, less energy being wasted as heat, especially underfoot...heat=blisters.

If you spend time on a bicycle you've learned that a foam padded seat vs a hard seat is night and day in terms of comfort, the foam seat has problems, the foam compressed differently in different spots causing hot spots and general discomfort, a hard seat is much more comfortable, less friction, but this is a lesson you must learn for yourself
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Old May 9th, 2016, 05:28 PM   #36
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Default Helium versus Hydrogen

Based on PICs below, once again you are confused, and your yellow HUB appears likely to have the SAME 'thane as mine which makes them equally damage prone on rougher outdoor surfaces.
Perhaps I would find the softer 80A Hydrogens more cut resistant but perhaps even more prone to the debonding issues of too thin "thane outdoors.

So, your lesson to be learned is to do your homework before you post

Roll Line Helium have YELLOW & ORANGE HUBS → 83A FIRMER BLUE 'THANE (translucent)
Roll Line Hydrogen have YELLOW & ORANGE HUBS → 80A SOFTER CLEAR 'THANE







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Old May 9th, 2016, 06:06 PM   #37
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Default roll line heliums

Mine are yellow hubs clear urethane with blue lettering.
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Old May 10th, 2016, 12:35 AM   #38
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Mine are yellow hubs clear urethane with blue lettering.
The blue lettering says HELIUM? or HYDROGEN?
I never saw Helium wheels with clear urethane, not even in any one of the many online ads I scanned looking for deals, before I abandoned them.

Maybe the BLUE writing indicated HELIUM and the WHITE lettering indicated HYDROGEN

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Old May 10th, 2016, 01:02 AM   #39
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No do' I'm assuming your wheels are older discontinued wheels with urethane that's seen to much ultraviolet light, junk, but perfectly useable.

Best wheels available, or you can strap on weights.
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Old May 10th, 2016, 01:10 AM   #40
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No do' I'm assuming your wheels are older discontinued wheels with urethane that's seen to much ultraviolet light, junk, but perfectly useable.

Best wheels available, or you can strap on weights.
Wrong, if yoh ask me or anyone else who has worn those wheels. I have 4 different sets and I let a few people test tjem with no feedback from me. Everyone chose the poisons over the roll lines for outdoor use.

They are terrible wheels.
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