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Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

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Old December 9th, 2013, 02:40 PM   #1
JSDarling
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Default Turns on the Advantage

Doc:
My turns, dance, as well as, jam and shuffle are crisper, Quicker and even more accurate than on the 45 Imperial.

Please put this Into perspective for me, it seems to defy geometric principal?
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Old December 9th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSDarling View Post
Doc:
My turns, dance, as well as, jam and shuffle are crisper, Quicker and even more accurate than on the 45 Imperial.

Please put this Into perspective for me, it seems to defy geometric principal?
It is very easy for your perceptions to appear to defy physics. Since there are numerous differences between your sk8s past the suspension geometry, tuning them to the limit and /or tuning them to sk8 as close to alike as possible is quite difficult.

The geometry issue is fixed. You will see many arguments as to which plate turns easier / better or discussion of various modifications will make one type of plate turn like another. Believe me, from a geometry standpoint, your Imperial will always turn sharper than your Advantage for a given amount of plate lean. This is the mechanical property that is not changeable no matter what modifications one makes to the suspension.


This diagram is a crude (as in exaggerated) approximation of what I see my feet doing when I scissor any of my DA45 type plates on the right and what my feet do on a Reactor / Pro line type plate. Again it is a crude approximation, but it should make the point.

I had not really paid any attention to this until I was sk8ing (and or trying to) with another local sk8r who rolls a Snyder Super Deluxe. I had the best luck matching his timing when I was on my Dance Deluxe Ultralite, my World Dominators or my Advantage which all have the same king pin geometry. It is much harder on plates with the king pin angles that are closer to (Pro Line / Reactor) or farther away from vertical (DA45).

I try to tune my sk8s to a point where I like them to be for having fun. They are all pretty much tuned to require a similar amount of input force to turn so they feel (but not necessarily behave) about the same when sk8ing. Because the plates lean different amounts for the same physical input the track on the floor is different.

Again, no amount of suspension modification will change this. When a 5 king pin plate leans over 5s it will always turn on the same radius, no matter what magic wand has been waved at the suspension. Same with a 15, a 20 degree a 25 or a 30 king pin plate. The same 5
lean will produce a progressively tighter radius assuming the wheel base is the same.

Now how do we get a 15
to turn "quicker" than a 30 plate. Mechanically you cannot however tuning the action will certainly make it feel quicker. Crisper?? It cannot by itself if I understand your term crisper. Again, an equal amount of plate lean cannot result in an equal amount of turning radius change.

So what are you feeling?? Your 395 / Advantage is considerably lighter than your older SG (73 or 93) high top on the Imperial.
Hang one of each on a fishing scale. I think you will be amazed at the difference. The boots has a lot less heel which changes the way you apply force to the plates and there is almost no restriction of your ankles.

The only real way to establish the difference between the actions is to put an Avenger or Royal on another pair of speed boots then start tuning them to feel as close to the same as possible when sk8ing and it is not real easy. I have a pair right now that I loaned to another sk8r and adjusted the action to suit their needs. I'm not having a whole lot of luck getting then adjusted back and am currently at a loss to explain what just adjusting them to where they were is not producing the desired results. I love a mystery but not when it is on my feet!!

Next time you are up this way, we can dig into this further. Bring both pair.


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Old December 9th, 2013, 07:01 PM   #3
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What cushions are on the Imperial? They can make a world of difference.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 08:45 PM   #4
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What cushions are on the Imperial? They can make a world of difference.

They both have Supers ( I did both suspensions) on them but I don't remember what the combos were.. I imagine Jim will be able to answer though. I suspect the majority of what he is feeling is the shorter wheelbase.
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Old December 9th, 2013, 11:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
What cushions are on the Imperial? They can make a world of difference.
Approximately 85A on the Imperials and 90A on the Advantage or next to hardest available on the Imperial vs hardest on the Advantage.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
It is very easy for your perceptions to appear to defy physics. Since there are numerous differences between your sk8s past the suspension geometry, tuning them to the limit and /or tuning them to sk8 as close to alike as possible is quite difficult.

The geometry issue is fixed. You will see many arguments as to which plate turns easier / better or discussion of various modifications will make one type of plate turn like another. Believe me, from a geometry standpoint, your Imperial will always turn sharper than your Advantage for a given amount of plate lean. This is the mechanical property that is not changeable no matter what modifications one makes to the suspension.


This diagram is a crude (as in exaggerated) approximation of what I see my feet doing when I scissor any of my DA45 type plates on the right and what my feet do on a Reactor / Pro line type plate. Again it is a crude approximation, but it should make the point.

I had not really paid any attention to this until I was sk8ing (and or trying to) with another local sk8r who rolls a Snyder Super Deluxe. I had the best luck matching his timing when I was on my Dance Deluxe Ultralite, my World Dominators or my Advantage which all have the same king pin geometry. It is much harder on plates with the king pin angles that are closer to (Pro Line / Reactor) or farther away from vertical (DA45).

I try to tune my sk8s to a point where I like them to be for having fun. They are all pretty much tuned to require a similar amount of input force to turn so they feel (but not necessarily behave) about the same when sk8ing. Because the plates lean different amounts for the same physical input the track on the floor is different.

Again, no amount of suspension modification will change this. When a 5 king pin plate leans over 5s it will always turn on the same radius, no matter what magic wand has been waved at the suspension. Same with a 15, a 20 degree a 25 or a 30 king pin plate. The same 5
lean will produce a progressively tighter radius assuming the wheel base is the same.

Now how do we get a 15
to turn "quicker" than a 30 plate. Mechanically you cannot however tuning the action will certainly make it feel quicker. Crisper?? It cannot by itself if I understand your term crisper. Again, an equal amount of plate lean cannot result in an equal amount of turning radius change.

So what are you feeling?? Your 395 / Advantage is considerably lighter than your older SG (73 or 93) high top on the Imperial.
Hang one of each on a fishing scale. I think you will be amazed at the difference. The boots has a lot less heel which changes the way you apply force to the plates and there is almost no restriction of your ankles.

The only real way to establish the difference between the actions is to put an Avenger or Royal on another pair of speed boots then start tuning them to feel as close to the same as possible when sk8ing and it is not real easy. I have a pair right now that I loaned to another sk8r and adjusted the action to suit their needs. I'm not having a whole lot of luck getting then adjusted back and am currently at a loss to explain what just adjusting them to where they were is not producing the desired results. I love a mystery but not when it is on my feet!!

Next time you are up this way, we can dig into this further. Bring both pair.


Point well made, Doc.

(excellent diagram)
The perspective I now have is: a longer turning radius on the Advantage, however with the shorter plate, and unencumbered ankle combination a quicker rebound or directional change part-way through the turn.
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Old December 10th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #7
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good info.
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