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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old October 14th, 2014, 10:30 AM   #41
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Old October 14th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #42
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The 125 frame deck is actually lower. It's the wheel height that makes them taller.
Ok, total height.
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Old October 14th, 2014, 09:50 PM   #43
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Based on the photos I have looked at putting a smaller wheel in the middle would not help bring the boot down as the toe would contact the front wheel and on big footed skaters the heel might rub too.

I hope that they never become legal and that we stay with a 110mm maximum. I hate seeing Newby skaters pronating all over the place trying to handle 100mm or 110mm wheels now and it will only get worse. It will be even harder for new skaters to get into the sport and compete. Lastly I think they look stupid.

Just because its speed skating does not mean that we need to have the fastest skates, just like the cyclists have weight and aero restrictions its ok to be a bit slower and still be equal. I would hate to see all the world records tumble as well.
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Old October 14th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cass38a View Post
Based on the photos I have looked at putting a smaller wheel in the middle would not help bring the boot down as the toe would contact the front wheel and on big footed skaters the heel might rub too.

I hope that they never become legal and that we stay with a 110mm maximum. I hate seeing Newby skaters pronating all over the place trying to handle 100mm or 110mm wheels now and it will only get worse. It will be even harder for new skaters to get into the sport and compete. Lastly I think they look stupid.

Just because its speed skating does not mean that we need to have the fastest skates, just like the cyclists have weight and aero restrictions its ok to be a bit slower and still be equal. I would hate to see all the world records tumble as well.
Same things were said when the 110's came out. It doesn't matter what skaters think now, the cat is out of the bag. When people start winning on them, that's when they are relevant. Eventually the governing body will be forced to make a decision on them.

I agree it makes it more difficult for new skaters to enter the sport as the larger wheels have a much longer learning curve. The small wheels were very easy to skate on. The learning curve was short, but not with the larger wheels.
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Old October 14th, 2014, 11:02 PM   #45
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I hate seeing Newby skaters pronating all over the place trying to handle 100mm or 110mm wheels now and it will only get worse.
We always blame this on ankle strength, but I am becoming more and more convinced that a bigger problem is frame placement. Just this past weekend I saw a coach check the alignment of one of his skater's frames. He had her stand in front of him and commented that one frame was further off center than the other. Nothing about skating or watching her stride. Just noted how far off center the back was. I spend a fair amount of time with my skaters getting the frames close, but I know a lot of other skaters in the region don't get that treatment - and I suspect a lot of them don't realize the connection to pronation.

To get back to your point, as the deck height raises frame alignment (not just ankle strength) becomes more important. There aren't enough resources or clinics on how to place the frame properly, which hurts new skaters. I would hope that any company pushing larger wheels would also address this shortcoming.
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Old October 14th, 2014, 11:29 PM   #46
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I've seen this before, somewhere....
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Old October 15th, 2014, 12:23 AM   #47
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We always blame this on ankle strength, but I am becoming more and more convinced that a bigger problem is frame placement. Just this past weekend I saw a coach check the alignment of one of his skater's frames. He had her stand in front of him and commented that one frame was further off center than the other. Nothing about skating or watching her stride. Just noted how far off center the back was. I spend a fair amount of time with my skaters getting the frames close, but I know a lot of other skaters in the region don't get that treatment - and I suspect a lot of them don't realize the connection to pronation.

To get back to your point, as the deck height raises frame alignment (not just ankle strength) becomes more important. There aren't enough resources or clinics on how to place the frame properly, which hurts new skaters. I would hope that any company pushing larger wheels would also address this shortcoming.
Not to get off the thread topic but:

I skate with several elite skaters who by no fault of their own were born with a natural pronation. They skate on full custom Bont Vaypors and have tried wedges and every frame placement possible to eliminate their pronating in their Bont boots, without total success. Your comment is only valid for some boot manufacturers as with many boot manufacturers you're limited to frame adjustments because of their mounting system.

I've commented many times about the American made boots that allow a frame to be adjusted in different zip codes because of their awesome mounting blocks, which most other boot manufactures won't allow with the single slot mounting system that really limits your frame adjustments.

Pronation for most skaters is more than a frame adjustment, it's a combination of technic, frame and strength and how severe your natural pronation is.

Sorry for getting of the topic.
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Old October 15th, 2014, 01:39 AM   #48
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Eventually the governing body will be forced to make a decision on them.
FIRS already made a decision on them in 2013 as I posted early on in the thread.

November 30, 2013
"The Fédération Internationale de Roller Sports (FIRS) has discussed permission of speedskates with 125mm wheels during the conference of FIRS and CEC which was held in Madrid (Spain). The executive board acknowledged that a skate with 125mm wheels is too dangerous and therefore will not be allowed in competition. Maximum wheel size remains 110mm."

http://www.online-skating.com/news-1...mm-wheels.html
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Old October 15th, 2014, 05:37 AM   #49
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FIRS already made a decision on them in 2013 as I posted early on in the thread.

November 30, 2013
"The Fédération Internationale de Roller Sports (FIRS) has discussed permission of speedskates with 125mm wheels during the conference of FIRS and CEC which was held in Madrid (Spain). The executive board acknowledged that a skate with 125mm wheels is too dangerous and therefore will not be allowed in competition. Maximum wheel size remains 110mm."

http://www.online-skating.com/news-1...mm-wheels.html

Only race in the U.S. this rule applies to is Outdoor Nationals because it is a qualifier to the World Championship.
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Old October 15th, 2014, 05:52 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by AZ Roadrunner View Post
Not to get off the thread topic but:

I skate with several elite skaters who by no fault of their own were born with a natural pronation. They skate on full custom Bont Vaypors and have tried wedges and every frame placement possible to eliminate their pronating in their Bont boots, without total success. Your comment is only valid for some boot manufacturers as with many boot manufacturers you're limited to frame adjustments because of their mounting system.

I've commented many times about the American made boots that allow a frame to be adjusted in different zip codes because of their awesome mounting blocks, which most other boot manufactures won't allow with the single slot mounting system that really limits your frame adjustments.

Pronation for most skaters is more than a frame adjustment, it's a combination of technic, frame and strength and how severe your natural pronation is.

Sorry for getting of the topic.
It's ironic the topic of pronation came up. My boot in the picture has a 15 degree cant. It was originally 10 degrees, but I had Simmons add 5 degrees. It also has more padding for the outside of my right ankle.

My right ankle over-pronates (The correct term for it.) even when I'm wearing shoes standing on flat ground.
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Old October 15th, 2014, 12:18 PM   #51
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Only race in the U.S. this rule applies to is Outdoor Nationals because it is a qualifier to the World Championship.
Correct, because of that they sent just enough sets here to keep building a little hype for marketing purposes. Now all of the wheels are sold with no plans, currently, to send anymore to the U.S. The U.S. outdoor market is usually a pretty low priority for Powerslide so FIRS ruling them not legal is a pretty big deal.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 02:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by cass38a View Post
I hope that they never become legal and that we stay with a 110mm maximum. I hate seeing Newby skaters pronating all over the place trying to handle 100mm or 110mm wheels now and it will only get worse. It will be even harder for new skaters to get into the sport and compete. Lastly I think they look stupid.
Its difficult enough to explain to some of the smaller skaters on my team that they need 80mm or 84mm wheels, their parents just look at the advanced skaters wearing 100mm or 110mms and say "thats what my kid needs"

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I agree it makes it more difficult for new skaters to enter the sport as the larger wheels have a much longer learning curve. The small wheels were very easy to skate on. The learning curve was short, but not with the larger wheels.
I couldn't agree more, I still push to have a lot of my skaters start on 80-84s, the transition is so much easier.

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Originally Posted by WJCIV View Post
We always blame this on ankle strength, but I am becoming more and more convinced that a bigger problem is frame placement. Just this past weekend I saw a coach check the alignment of one of his skater's frames. He had her stand in front of him and commented that one frame was further off center than the other. Nothing about skating or watching her stride. Just noted how far off center the back was. I spend a fair amount of time with my skaters getting the frames close, but I know a lot of other skaters in the region don't get that treatment - and I suspect a lot of them don't realize the connection to pronation.
I agree the frame placement is important and I am a stickler about frame placement as well, but I think we can agree that the probability and degree of pronation has a direct correlation with the deck height and wheel size, does it not?

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FIRS already made a decision on them in 2013 as I posted early on in the thread.

November 30, 2013
"The Fédération Internationale de Roller Sports (FIRS) has discussed permission of speedskates with 125mm wheels during the conference of FIRS and CEC which was held in Madrid (Spain). The executive board acknowledged that a skate with 125mm wheels is too dangerous and therefore will not be allowed in competition. Maximum wheel size remains 110mm."
This is something they could overturn at any point in time, is it not?
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Old October 16th, 2014, 05:34 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by WJCIV View Post
We always blame this on ankle strength, but I am becoming more and more convinced that a bigger problem is frame placement. Just this past weekend I saw a coach check the alignment of one of his skater's frames. He had her stand in front of him and commented that one frame was further off center than the other. Nothing about skating or watching her stride. Just noted how far off center the back was. I spend a fair amount of time with my skaters getting the frames close, but I know a lot of other skaters in the region don't get that treatment - and I suspect a lot of them don't realize the connection to pronation.

To get back to your point, as the deck height raises frame alignment (not just ankle strength) becomes more important. There aren't enough resources or clinics on how to place the frame properly, which hurts new skaters. I would hope that any company pushing larger wheels would also address this shortcoming.
You can't correctly place a frame by sight alone. Mounting blocks and the leathers are not usually centered the same on boots. The only real way to place the frame is to skate on it and gradually make adjustments. This is especially true for custom boots. The mounting blocks are rarely centered well to the center of the foot and it is usually different for the two boots (left and right).
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:48 PM   #54
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If a 3 x 125 set up is supposed to be so good why are we not skating on 3 x 110mm?????????

If you can get enough grip from only three wheels then a 3 x 110mm would give a ultra low deck height, less friction, less weight, any frame length, huge selection of the best wheels from all the manufacturers and be legal.
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Old October 16th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #55
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If a 3 x 125 set up is supposed to be so good why are we not skating on 3 x 110mm?????????

If you can get enough grip from only three wheels then a 3 x 110mm would give a ultra low deck height, less friction, less weight, any frame length, huge selection of the best wheels from all the manufacturers and be legal.
You can get enough grip, the wheels just wear out faster since you're putting more pressure on each wheel. When you increase the wheel size you increase the contact patch plus you increase the surface area of the wheel to spread that wear over.

In fact, some (grown) people do run 3x110's on old 5x80 frames that don't have structural supports in the way (The Mogema Cross Trainer works well for this.)
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Old October 17th, 2014, 01:37 AM   #56
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USARS has a rule for indoor too. It's not like no one saw this coming. They didn't look at this frame in particular, but they did consider the entire class of bigger than 110s.

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I agree the frame placement is important and I am a stickler about frame placement as well, but I think we can agree that the probability and degree of pronation has a direct correlation with the deck height and wheel size, does it not?
Absolutely. Frame position is more important with bigger wheels because if it is off just a bit the load on the ankle is much bigger. So it is more important to get it exactly right.

Actually, I'm going to walk back my statements a bit. I do think it holds indoors, where the force applied is directly down the leg and through the frame at a given angle. Outdoors, especially with a double push, is different. Frame placement is still important, but ankles probably play a bigger role.

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If you can get enough grip from only three wheels then a 3 x 110mm would give a ultra low deck height, less friction, less weight, any frame length, huge selection of the best wheels from all the manufacturers and be legal.
The less friction claim is tricky. Remember that friction and rolling resistance are different. There is friction in the bearings. It is directly proportional to the force applied to the bearings. So if you increase the number of bearings you have more points of friction, but each one has less force applied. So it is a wash.

Rolling resistance, though, is a function of deflection of the wheel. All else being equal (wheel size and materials) more force means more deflection which means more rolling resistance. I believe that it isn't linear, which means 3 wheels actually has more rolling resistance than 4 of the same wheels.

Then there are the people worried about grip. If one wheel hits a slick spot is has a greater portion of the weight, and therefore makes a bigger difference, if there are fewer wheels.

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The only real way to place the frame is to skate on it and gradually make adjustments.
Sorry I wasn't clear before; that was actually the point I was trying to make. The skill to properly align frames isn't common enough. Someone who picks up skating on their own won't have it. Even the people who skate on teams are listening to older skaters who grew up in the era of quads or small wheel inlines when frame alignment didn't exist as it does today or wasn't as important (getting close was good enough). Even if they know a frame has to be properly aligned they aren't going about it the right way. That really needs to change in general, but especially if deck heights keep increasing.
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Old October 17th, 2014, 02:39 AM   #57
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USARS has a rule for indoor too. It's not like no one saw this coming. They didn't look at this frame in particular, but they did consider the entire class of bigger than 110s.

And the rule for indoor is that they have to be for sale to the public according to the National office.
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Old October 17th, 2014, 05:45 AM   #58
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Default Used my F0 One20Fives Core 125 frame and City Run Vulcan 3.8 @ A2A 49mile

I was/ am injured (lower back issues), and because of that had zero lead up practice. I was not racing, and my time of 5:52 for the 49 shows how slow I was going. But, this gave me an EXTENDED time of being on the tall 125s. My ankles, calves, and shins felt fine.
We got rained on for 15 to 30 minutes between checkpoints 4&5 and there were damp conditions throughout the rest of the race. I did not feel insecure about grip even though I was on the current hardest of Matter's wheels. My impaired(back) cadence felt good and natural. I was able to pull at the front of our group for long stints and had to concentrate on not pulling away from them. The roll of the wheels was good, comparable to MPC XFirm Road Wars. During the skate we had to SLOW down for many intersections and I used both plow and side drag stopping techniques. The wheels are still true, and the wear is negligible.
The rain may have blistered my feet, but otherwise I was comfortable. Last year I did the 38 on Road Wars and was more exhausted and sore than I was this year. I know I wasn't really pushing myself, but I'm pleasantly pleased with how my skates helped my performance.
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Old October 20th, 2014, 02:08 AM   #59
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And the rule for indoor is that they have to be for sale to the public according to the National office.
That rule kind of died when they discontinued the wheel registry.
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Old October 21st, 2014, 01:51 PM   #60
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I got a set of 125's to test yesterday. It rained so I haven't skated on it yet but I'd say the there are going to be quite a few people that won't be able to use the setup at the current deck height. Like, Rob, the wheel rubs on both of my setups without shims. I had to add 2mm to barely get enough clearance for it spin. Realistically to skate on it I'm going to need to add more as I imagine somewhere in that chain a 1/2 mm won't be enough clearance.

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