Best Squat for Skating

[Malcom]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

Looks positively painful, and bruising to the arms. Not to mention it looks awfully close to a deadlift, so may as well do a deadlift. I am on blood thinners, so bruising is bad. Think I'll skip the Zercher.

LOL it's a tough exercise....and it is a great assistance exercise for the deadlift. What it provides over the deadlift, when done off a low box, is the ability to train hip flexibility and it's tough on your core.

[WJCIV]

Originally Posted by Mort

Do you have any resistance training you can utilize for skating?

Soft wheels and bad bearings. The wheels really do make a difference. On Sunday something was wrong with my race wheels (red hubbed IQs), so I switched back to my practice wheels (outdoor WRWs) after the first race. Whatever the problem was went away, but I was getting a lot less roll. Not that it matters when I'm chasing the back of the pack either way. I've also kept practice wheels well past the point where they were any good, and getting a new set seems like a huge improvement, even if they are a softer compound.

As far as bearings go, I use old bearings for practice. Even so, they are in pretty good shape. I know people who absolutely pack the grease in to slow down the bearings as much as possible. I don't think this would help me. I would have to slow down a lot to be chasing anyone at practice to give me extra incentive, and I would prefer to work on my timing and reactions at or near top speed.

To the original point of the thread, I don't use free weights. I use weight machines for the first 3 months of the season, and another 1-2 months at the end. I spend a lot more time doing plyos or other exercises that use the body to provide the weight.

[theDonnybrook]

Originally Posted by WJCIV

Soft wheels and bad bearings. The wheels really do make a difference.

As far as bearings go, I use old bearings for practice.

To the original point of the thread, I don't use free weights. I use weight machines for the first 3 months of the season, and another 1-2 months at the end. I spend a lot more time doing plyos or other exercises that use the body to provide the weight.

Once we can skate here (Roller-Dome gone, Winter, too cold for ice...), I do the same. I have wheels for training that are soft and slow, and use my "rain" bearings or older bearings that are beat up to slow things down. I skate a lot of hills, too. Our 22 mile regular Saturday route has some huge climbs, and I skate the route near by my house that the triathlon and road cyclists use for climbing work outs. I work plyos year round. Started the thread to get an idea of whether there is a meaningful difference between front and back squats for skating. I am currently doing power cleans with a front squat x6 followed by back squats x6 in my lifting schedule.

[Mort]

Not doggin ya bro, but I cannot see that part of the country having significant hills.

Maybe you should buy some sh!tty scooter wheels to train on? Lol I bet they roll like a square marshmallow.

Or buy some smaller heels and train on them. Your stride rate will increase for the same speed, coupled with a softer wheel around 80-82a, some #3 grease packed bearings, that should wear ya out.

[PBLsQuad450]

Originally Posted by Mort

Not doggin ya bro, but I cannot see that part of the country having significant hills.

Maybe you should buy some sh!tty scooter wheels to train on? Lol I bet they roll like a square marshmallow.

Or buy some smaller heels and train on them. Your stride rate will increase for the same speed, coupled with a softer wheel around 80-82a, some #3 grease packed bearings, that should wear ya out.

I think he's already getting more wear and tear using speed skates, the higher set-up and low ankle height change the work required to push them considerably. I find long slow climbs pretty easy on speed skates and sharp steep climbs harder which is very different. When I was on rec skates it seemed to be the opposite. And I used a 5X84 under my rec boots, not the stock 4X84. I'm any case I can't imagine slowing down my skates on purpose. I'm slow enough with every advantage I can get!

[theDonnybrook]

Originally Posted by Mort

Not doggin ya bro, but I cannot see that part of the country having significant hills.

Maybe you should buy some sh!tty scooter wheels to train on? Lol I bet they roll like a square marshmallow.

Or buy some smaller heels and train on them. Your stride rate will increase for the same speed, coupled with a softer wheel around 80-82a, some #3 grease packed bearings, that should wear ya out.

http://www.endomondo.com/workouts/205955029/3045445

Total vertical on my "hill route" is only about 250 feet, but there are a lot of sharp hills. Filter for altitude at the bottom. If the cyclists call it the climb route, I have not worries doing the same work out on skates. I agree with PBLSquad, though, about it being harder on 110mm frames because of the deck height. I do increase my stride tempo on the hills, though, which helps.

[WJCIV]

Originally Posted by PBLsQuad450

I find long slow climbs pretty easy on speed skates and sharp steep climbs harder which is very different. When I was on rec skates it seemed to be the opposite.

People in rec skates (especially high ankle ones) tend to have shorter strides for a variety of reasons. On steep hills you shorten your strides and have less glide because you lose speed so quickly. On speed skates, other than hills, you take longer pushes with a glide incorporated in. So the reason it is harder is because there is a bigger change in form and you work different muscles.

I realized I should mention what I mean by season, because it is different from those of you who skate primarily outdoors. I start late August and end in mid-July, so it is 11 months. I did skate a lot outdoors a decade ago, and my weight regimen is actually longer now.

[streamline]

All squats use all the leg muscles, back squats focus on hamstring and front squats on the quads, dead lifts focus on gluts. I work six week cycles focusing on one of these three and adding other weighted leg exercises and body weight exercises, lots of lunges with strength and balance leg exercises as well.

It is always better to never focus on one area to much if you are training for sports. This really helps prevent injuries. I have a trainer (Kyle) who designs my workouts for me. Not everyone can afford a trainer or want one for that matter. It might be worth it to get a pro to design your workouts but not train you. I enjoy having a trainer and am willing to sacrifice in order to afford it. This way my form is always correct and my exercises are always effective.

As for resistance training we are going to try the speed resistance parachutes. I mainly want them for skating downhill. I train on a 7.2km loop, 3.6km up and down and I don't want to be wasting my time enjoying the downhill, so I'm hoping the chutes will give me the resistance I need to keep the legs digging deep. I'm sure there will be a learning curve. Plus there is the wind, being close to the water makes for windy days, which can also be uses to increase resistance. Fact my chutes should arrive today. I will have my trainer out with me and the GoPro so videos will be forth coming (weather permitting).

Note, squats are the best weight bearing exercises for over all bone maintenance.

[theDonnybrook]

Originally Posted by streamline

All squats use all the leg muscles, back squats focus on hamstring and front squats on the quads, dead lifts focus on gluts. I work six week cycles focusing on one of these three and adding other weighted leg exercises and body weight exercises, lots of lunges with strength and balance leg exercises as well.

It is always better to never focus on one area to much if you are training for sports. This really helps prevent injuries. I have a trainer (Kyle) who designs my workouts for me. Not everyone can afford a trainer or want one for that matter. It might be worth it to get a pro to design your workouts but not train you. I enjoy having a trainer and am willing to sacrifice in order to afford it. This way my form is always correct and my exercises are always effective.

As for resistance training we are going to try the speed resistance parachutes. I mainly want them for skating downhill. I train on a 7.2km loop, 3.6km up and down and I don't want to be wasting my time enjoying the downhill, so I'm hoping the chutes will give me the resistance I need to keep the legs digging deep. I'm sure there will be a learning curve. Plus there is the wind, being close to the water makes for windy days, which can also be uses to increase resistance. Fact my chutes should arrive today. I will have my trainer out with me and the GoPro so videos will be forth coming (weather permitting).

Note, squats are the best weight bearing exercises for over all bone maintenance.

Streamline, a buddy of mine who is a strength coach designed the workout I do from November through January. It is a lot of lunge style weight lifting with variations on squats, like poliquin step-ups, split squats, etc. Right now, I am doing a mix of that routine with power cleans (with a front squat), high rear squats, and dead lifts. Seems to be working well. I switched from a front squat focus to a high rear squat focus based on the suggestions in this post. One of the many reasons this is a great forum.

[PBLsQuad450]

Hi Donny! Step ups and split squats are awesome. And of course dead lifts too. I don't know high rear squats? Explosive lifts, and I have done them a lot, are very hard on the joints, especially the spine. Power cleans are great, but please be careful, maybe limited duration, a few weeks a year. Using the load necessary to generate good results can wear on your back. Stream, trainers are a great idea, like you say, if you can afford it and they are qualified. Front squats don't re-focus the useful load as simply as you state. Primarily because the load is lowered to accommodate the bar across the clavicles. Lowering the load reduces the benefit in every regard. Sure, the emphasis is moved slightly but the question is, does it make it any more useful than a heavier load in a back squat? Malcolm can answer that better than me, but I suspect it doesn't. For building explosive power, try putting the chains on. You can also tuck resistance bands under the cage and loop them over the end of the bar. Both will increase the load at the top of the lift but keep you doing an ass to grass squat. With chains, I have clips, like for climbing, and I move the clips to adjust the amount of chain off the floor at the top of the lift. No clip leaves half the chain on the floor. Pick up the ends and clip them up high near the bar and you are lifting almost all the chain. Some must always remain on the floor of course, but they are long, and 45lbs. each, so you can really change the weight dramatically. It will also de-stabilize you but not in a way that exposes you to joint risk, so you get some (much?) of the same benefit of a lift like power cleans with less injury burden. And believe me, I have to rotate them out sometimes because the wider body impact of chains is dramatic, really hard and sometimes too much.

[theDonnybrook]

Originally Posted by PBLsQuad450

Hi Donny! Step ups and split squats are awesome. And of course dead lifts too. I don't know high rear squats? Explosive lifts, and I have done them a lot, are very hard on the joints, especially the spine. Power cleans are great, but please be careful, maybe limited duration, a few weeks a year. Using the load necessary to generate good results can wear on your back. Stream, trainers are a great idea, like you say, if you can afford it and they are qualified. Front squats don't re-focus the useful load as simply as you state. Primarily because the load is lowered to accommodate the bar across the clavicles. Lowering the load reduces the benefit in every regard. Sure, the emphasis is moved slightly but the question is, does it make it any more useful than a heavier load in a back squat? Malcolm can answer that better than me, but I suspect it doesn't. For building explosive power, try putting the chains on. You can also tuck resistance bands under the cage and loop them over the end of the bar. Both will increase the load at the top of the lift but keep you doing an ass to grass squat. With chains, I have clips, like for climbing, and I move the clips to adjust the amount of chain off the floor at the top of the lift. No clip leaves half the chain on the floor. Pick up the ends and clip them up high near the bar and you are lifting almost all the chain. Some must always remain on the floor of course, but they are long, and 45lbs. each, so you can really change the weight dramatically. It will also de-stabilize you but not in a way that exposes you to joint risk, so you get some (much?) of the same benefit of a lift like power cleans with less injury burden. And believe me, I have to rotate them out sometimes because the wider body impact of chains is dramatic, really hard and sometimes too much.

This video shows the 3 basic types of squats, the high rear (most common), the low rear, and the front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVpg3ChPzrs

PBLS, where did you get your chains? Any thoughts on gauge or length to get the right weight?

I am presently only doing two sets of power cleans per week at around 120 pounds. Hoping to go up to 125 next week, but we will see. This is low compared to the 200+ I do on a lot of my other lifts, and the aggressive increase in my high back squat, which should hit 170 next week. I am not too worried about training power cleans at this point. I am increasing the weight really slow. However, if there is a better/safer way to train power lifts, I am interested in any options.

[Malcom]

Originally Posted by PBLsQuad450

Front squats don't re-focus the useful load as simply as you state. Primarily because the load is lowered to accommodate the bar across the clavicles. Lowering the load reduces the benefit in every regard. Sure, the emphasis is moved slightly but the question is, does it make it any more useful than a heavier load in a back squat? Malcolm can answer that better than me, but I suspect it doesn't.

Front squats are fine but really should be more of an accessory exercise. Since more of a load can be used with a back squat, it is superior with regards to athletic training. A stronger athlete is a better athlete.

Originally Posted by theDonnybrook

This video shows the 3 basic types of squats, the high rear (most common), the low rear, and the front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVpg3ChPzrs

PBLS, where did you get your chains? Any thoughts on gauge or length to get the right weight?

That video, while it shows the different types of squats is terrible. The knee should never hyperextend like that out in front of the toe. This is one reason why a lot of people that squat have knee pain. The video below is a better one....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZX-_wHf5u0

Notice how his shin is pretty much perpendicular to the floor.

You can buy chains in the link below.

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elit...hPhrase=chains

As a guide if your max squat is 400 or below 1 set of chains is used. 400-600 2 sets of chains would be used. Above that 3-4....

[Malcom]

Also....

Elitefts has all bands on sale 30% off now...

http://www.flexcart.com/members/elit...lt.asp?cid=493

[rufusprime99]

How about the overhead squat. i was looking at that. First you use a broomstick and get some shoulder flexibility. Then practice with just the broomstick. It really hits the upper back and stretches the pecs.

[theDonnybrook]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

How about the overhead squat. i was looking at that. First you use a broomstick and get some shoulder flexibility. Then practice with just the broomstick. It really hits the upper back and stretches the pecs.

Overhead squat is basically a front squat/high rear squat variant, depending on your shoulder flexibility. Also good for Core.

[rufusprime99]

So then, what about depth? Also high bar or low bar? Foot width? Wide or very wide?

1/4, 1/2, full, or ATG on depth?

I was doing what I though were 1/2 squats, only to find out they were more like quarter squats. High bar, btw.

I just dropped my weight way down and did some full, a little below parallel, LOW BAR squats. Kind of a different feel. I will work my way up with this for a while. Get used to the different form.

Comments?

[PBLsQuad450]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

So then, what about depth? Also high bar or low bar? Foot width? Wide or very wide?

1/4, 1/2, full, or ATG on depth?

I was doing what I though were 1/2 squats, only to find out they were more like quarter squats. High bar, btw.

I just dropped my weight way down and did some full, a little below parallel, LOW BAR squats. Kind of a different feel. I will work my way up with this for a while. Get used to the different form.

Comments?

I'm not sure 1/2 squats have a lot of value, in fact, they are awful for your knees because you force them to be breaks instead of using your large hams, glutes and quads to stop the load. Much safer. Plus, you tend to load up the bar on 1/2 squats, since the lift is easy up there. It's on the ground that things get ugly and proper form (and state of mind) becomes critical. ATG is over stated, parallel your thigh tops with the floor, that's a good safe depth. If you are inflexible you can raise your heel slightly on a board something... Keep your head up! Stance is fine about shoulder width, or a little wider... Yep, your weight is going to nose dive. But your gains will do the opposite! Donny, my gym has them laying around. I bring clips to adjust the amount of chain off the floor. Start with as much chain staying on the floor as possible. This is one tough squat. You are increasing load at the top but you are also somewhat de-stabilized... But not nearly a traumatic lift like a power clean, but you will feel the chain moving alright. It will of remind you that squats are the king of all lifts and use every muscle in your body. Your weights are good!!! And Malcolm, thanks again! And I can't imagine in my wildest dreams using more than one set of chains!

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by PBLsQuad450

I'm not sure 1/2 squats have a lot of value, in fact, they are awful for your knees because you force them to be breaks instead of using your large hams, glutes and quads to stop the load. Much safer. Plus, you tend to load up the bar on 1/2 squats, since the lift is easy up there. It's on the ground that things get ugly and proper form (and state of mind) becomes critical. ATG is over stated, parallel your thigh tops with the floor, that's a good safe depth. If you are inflexible you can raise your heel slightly on a board something... Keep your head up! Stance is fine about shoulder width, or a little wider... Yep, your weight is going to nose dive. But your gains will do the opposite!

I do my workouts at home. I have a BioForce 2.2 workout machine. It is a dual double cable system. Two high cables attached to a curved bar for lat work/dual high pulley work, and a two moveable pulleys. Crossbar for chest presses, narrow or wide, low mainframe for leg extension/curl/low pulley, and forward low for curls, lat raises and squat. I have been using the squat bar that I had gotten when I had a BowFlex. It is a bar with cable attachments on each side. I use normal 1 inch chain to adjust the length/depth of my squats. I just lowered the bar height 4 inches. This gets me a little under parallel.

The normal method of squatting with the BioForce is to use the handle grips. Arms fully bent, elbows glued to ribs, hands near shoulders. Works ok until the weight gets too heavy as it does with 1/2 squats. I think I may give ATG a go skipping the bar and just using the handles. With the weight lower, it should be manageable. OR, I could use the bar/chain method, making sure that the cable tension stops an inch or two before ATG. I will lift the first inch or two under body weight only before hitting resistance in the bar.

Another question. What is this box stuff? Do you mean a device you sit back into to signal you that you have gone low enough? I was having to concentrate too much on how low I was going with my full, a bit past parallel, squat than I would like. Kinda of why I am considering ATG. ATG is ATG. When you get there, you know it.

[theDonnybrook]

Originally Posted by rufusprime99

So then, what about depth? Also high bar or low bar? Foot width? Wide or very wide?

1/4, 1/2, full, or ATG on depth?

I was doing what I though were 1/2 squats, only to find out they were more like quarter squats. High bar, btw.

I just dropped my weight way down and did some full, a little below parallel, LOW BAR squats. Kind of a different feel. I will work my way up with this for a while. Get used to the different form.

Comments?

I agree with PBLs on what he said regarding depth. Type of squat largely depends on what you are going for. Low bar will work more glutes, high bar and front more quads. The squat is a full leg exercise, but some parts of the lower string engage more than others depending on your posture. I prefer Dead Lifts for ham/glute work over low bar squats, as you get a more targeted lift that way. As for depth, parallel if you can, lower is fine, ATG is a bit overkill if you aren't looking to be a monster. ATG is better for overall mobility, but stresses a lot of stabilizer muscles that are not primary for the squat. Parallel will get you what you need, a little bit deeper will help your inner thigh muscles, which should be good for skating.

[rufusprime99]

Originally Posted by theDonnybrook

I agree with PBLs on what he said regarding depth. Type of squat largely depends on what you are going for. Low bar will work more glutes, high bar and front more quads. The squat is a full leg exercise, but some parts of the lower string engage more than others depending on your posture. I prefer Dead Lifts for ham/glute work over low bar squats, as you get a more targeted lift that way. As for depth, parallel if you can, lower is fine, ATG is a bit overkill if you aren't looking to be a monster. ATG is better for overall mobility, but stresses a lot of stabilizer muscles that are not primary for the squat. Parallel will get you what you need, a little bit deeper will help your inner thigh muscles, which should be good for skating.

I guess you could say I am looking for strength and the healthiest strongest knee possible. (good knee health, given all the problems I have had with them. Skating, right now, is on the back burner to squatting. I want to see how "well" I can get my knees) I have not been able to sit in an ATG position and get out of it for years. After 7 sessions in the half squat, 3x20, I gained some strength and confidence. Yesterday and today I have worked on the range of motion, and can now do a few ATG deep knee bends with no problem. I am curious to see if I can to ATG with 40, 60, and 80 lbs tomorrow.

Use it or lose it. Going by that thinking, I NEED to do SOME ATG to maintain full range of motion, and joint health for my knee. BUT, given my bad knee history, I have to be careful about weight.

Using the 3 sets of 20 as my goal at a given weight, now to be done in full squats, not 1/2, I STILL need to warm up each workout. Perhaps 2 sets of ATG making sure not to get to a knee straining weight, then transition to full squats for the "main" 3 sets. I think I will try some light ATG's for a couple of workouts with the notion of making them my warm up for full squats later on.

Re Monster: I could rock a little monster.