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Fitness Skating and Training Forum Discussions about on-skate and off-skate training, hydration, sports nutrition, weight loss, injuries, sports medicine, and other topics related to training and physical fitness for skaters.

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Old May 23rd, 2014, 07:26 AM   #21
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i'm familiar with the idea, and read the book by the guy they are referencing, Tim Noakes (Lore of Running).
It wasn't one of my favorite books by a long stretch.
I happen to think that a better twist on the idea was put forth by Matt Fitzgerald in his book "RUN: The Mind-Body Method of Running by Feel". http://www.amazon.com/RUN-Mind-Body-...ds=run+by+feel
I think it's not so simple to say that the brain is the key, and i think both these authors are a bit more nuanced in their description of the interplay between mind and body (it is actually an ongoing dialogue between the mind and body).
What it is, is this: the mind and body communicate on a sub-conscious level, and basically dictate your performance limits. Your mind will make calculations taking into account distance, duration, effort level, terrain, conditioning, etc., and only let your body perform up to a level that it determines will avoid you hurting yourself. So, in Matt Fitzgerald's book, he advocates slowly building up your workouts to tougher and more challenging ones in the goal to teach your body that you can handle the challenge and not self-destruct. He believes this all happens sub-consciously, and your mind gains the confidence and assurance of what you can do. So, he says, it is important to be keenly aware of how you feel, and train to that as your guide. He says, ask yourself what will make me the best runner (or skater), what will it take, how will i convince myself that i can do that, and to go about slowly building to overcome that challenge. He believes the mind will try to hold you back, but you need to gently show it that you can do it, and then the mind won't hold you back from performing at that level, since it won't fear you imploding as a result. Then, you gradually build to overcome the next level of resistance.
And of course, there's all the risks of going too far, too fast, or wiping yourself out, which would just reinforce the mind's determination to not let you do that again, etc.
Good stuff, and it seems reasonable to me.
Running in particular is very physical, and it's very straight forward in that respect. It's basically a direct drive system, which makes it very concrete in terms of performance, but since it is, it becomes very easy to reach your limits of performance, and so one finds that they spend a lot of their time right up against that pain threshold, for better or worse.
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 09:28 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by online inline View Post
i'm familiar with the idea, and read the book by the guy they are referencing, Tim Noakes (Lore of Running).
It wasn't one of my favorite books by a long stretch.
I happen to think that a better twist on the idea was put forth by Matt Fitzgerald in his book "RUN: The Mind-Body Method of Running by Feel". http://www.amazon.com/RUN-Mind-Body-...ds=run+by+feel
I think it's not so simple to say that the brain is the key, and i think both these authors are a bit more nuanced in their description of the interplay between mind and body (it is actually an ongoing dialogue between the mind and body).
What it is, is this: the mind and body communicate on a sub-conscious level, and basically dictate your performance limits. Your mind will make calculations taking into account distance, duration, effort level, terrain, conditioning, etc., and only let your body perform up to a level that it determines will avoid you hurting yourself. So, in Matt Fitzgerald's book, he advocates slowly building up your workouts to tougher and more challenging ones in the goal to teach your body that you can handle the challenge and not self-destruct. He believes this all happens sub-consciously, and your mind gains the confidence and assurance of what you can do. So, he says, it is important to be keenly aware of how you feel, and train to that as your guide. He says, ask yourself what will make me the best runner (or skater), what will it take, how will i convince myself that i can do that, and to go about slowly building to overcome that challenge. He believes the mind will try to hold you back, but you need to gently show it that you can do it, and then the mind won't hold you back from performing at that level, since it won't fear you imploding as a result. Then, you gradually build to overcome the next level of resistance.
And of course, there's all the risks of going too far, too fast, or wiping yourself out, which would just reinforce the mind's determination to not let you do that again, etc.
Good stuff, and it seems reasonable to me.
Running in particular is very physical, and it's very straight forward in that respect. It's basically a direct drive system, which makes it very concrete in terms of performance, but since it is, it becomes very easy to reach your limits of performance, and so one finds that they spend a lot of their time right up against that pain threshold, for better or worse.
I like that, and seems there is a lot of overlap with Noakes' model. Noakes uses the example of the 4-min mile and John Landy - Bannister's great rival. Prior to the 4min barrier being broken, Landy had run:

4:02.1 4:02.6 4:02.8 4:02.5 4:02.7 4:02.3

He then remarked:

"Frankly, I think the four-minute mile is beyond my capabilities. Two seconds may not sound much, but to me its like trying to break through a brick wall. Someone may achieve the four-minute mile the world is wanting so desperately, but I dont think I can."

However, just 46 days after Bannister broke the 4-min mile, Landy went out and ran 3.57.9!! Once he had been shown that it was possible, his mind accepted it and he was able to achieve something he previously never thought possible. Over 4 seconds faster than his previous best!

I don't think that sort of jump in performance is possible to explain just through physiology and training in such a short space of time. It has to come from the role of the mind.
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Old June 13th, 2014, 07:25 PM   #23
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I can finally say my online my training is starting to get very serious. I've just started my second session with Mad Dog Mike.

Last week, Monday June 2 started with an early morning 40 minute fast run, that's do the warm up and then start increasing the pace, ending with an all out at the end. Cool down, stretch, eat and soak the legs in a cold water bath until numb. An afternoon leg workout, mostly squats and dead lifts and some abs of course. It was then an evening skate, laid down 40km of hard skating.

Tuesday, leg rest day, upper body and abs.

Wednesday is turning into my favorite workout day. Start off at 4:30 am for the hill run. The hill should not be so steep you can't run down safely and should take more than a minute to descend. My hill is a 5 1/2 minute round trip. The run down is as fast as I can. The return up is for recovery and can be a walk/jog if need be. Repeat this for 50 minutes, cool down, stretch, eat and soak the legs in cold water. Late afternoon leg workout, all body weight exercises and abs. Followed by an evening 40km skate up and down the hill, which is 7.2km round trip.

Thursday morning 40 minute run, mix it up and finish fast. After noon 62km skate.

Friday rest day.

Saturday morning run. Saturday is the big run day, 75 minute run with a 20 minute walk/jog, walk one minute and jog for 2. Afternoon skate, 35km the wind made it more like 60km.

Sunday is rest day.

This week started with a 45 minute fast run, an afternoon leg workout (squats and dead lifts) and an evening skate. I skate on Mondays during the commuter times so I can keep myself motivated by chasing everything in front of me, 45km skate

Tuesday is leg rest, upper body and abs

Wednesday early morning hill run for 55 minutes, afternoon body weight leg workout. Followed by an evening skate, only 35km, legs were tried.

Thursday morning 40 minute run, mix it up and finish fast. No skate today, which sucks but life gets in the way sometimes.

Today is rest day

Tomorrows long run will be 95 minutes with a 30 minute walk/jog. Hopefully a great skate as well, but they are calling for rain.

Last edited by streamline; June 13th, 2014 at 09:19 PM. Reason: Forgot the run down as fast as possible.
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Old June 14th, 2014, 07:38 PM   #24
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Just an observation - you seem to be doing a lot of running BEFORE your skating. IMO that should be reversed - skate first, then do some running if you must. Why? Because your body will be most responsive to whichever activity it is performing when it is freshest.

If you've pooped out your ANS with a workout earlier in the day then you won't get as much training adaption from your subsequent workout.
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Old June 15th, 2014, 08:40 PM   #25
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Just an observation - you seem to be doing a lot of running BEFORE your skating. IMO that should be reversed - skate first, then do some running if you must. Why? Because your body will be most responsive to whichever activity it is performing when it is freshest.

If you've pooped out your ANS with a workout earlier in the day then you won't get as much training adaption from your subsequent workout.
Interesting, but not very practical. First off I run in the morning because that's the only time I can run. I don't have enough time to skate before work. I also do cold bath forced recovery for my legs on my long run day and my hill run day.

Second, the only time I care if my legs are fresh for a skate is when I'm planning to rip up the asphalt. I'm training my legs for endurance, so I'll do what ever it takes to exhaust my legs on leg days and rest them on rest days. I skate after my leg workout on Monday because my legs are to exhausted to do it after my skate. It certainly is more taxing on the legs but that is the point of the training.

I also have one on the greatest endurance athletes in the world laying out my training for me. So I'm going to stick with his advice and training plan. I'm already faster on my skates so it's all good. Still ten weeks of training to go.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 02:44 AM   #26
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Just an observation - you seem to be doing a lot of running BEFORE your skating. IMO that should be reversed - skate first, then do some running if you must. Why? Because your body will be most responsive to whichever activity it is performing when it is freshest.

If you've pooped out your ANS with a workout earlier in the day then you won't get as much training adaption from your subsequent workout.
I think the opposite really.

Skating isnt about strength, its about form.

A very slight increase in form and skill will carry you very far. The training he seems to be doing has him fatigued a bit before a skate, and a fatigued muscle is no where near as precise as a fresh one. This should maximize his skating skills for a long haul. Since he majority of his skating wil be done at a higher level of fatigue its very important to be torn down before you train your skating skills. To reach that level of fatigue would take too long on skates.

Also the last thing you should do before resting is the activity you wish to work on the most. The brain does best at storing new skills and skill refinement if its the last or close to last thing you do before sleep.

With his skating time done later in the day it follows just that. I think his training is going very well.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 09:57 AM   #27
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I think the opposite really.

Skating isnt about strength, its about form.

A very slight increase in form and skill will carry you very far. The training he seems to be doing has him fatigued a bit before a skate, and a fatigued muscle is no where near as precise as a fresh one. This should maximize his skating skills for a long haul. Since he majority of his skating wil be done at a higher level of fatigue its very important to be torn down before you train your skating skills. To reach that level of fatigue would take too long on skates.

Also the last thing you should do before resting is the activity you wish to work on the most. The brain does best at storing new skills and skill refinement if its the last or close to last thing you do before sleep.

With his skating time done later in the day it follows just that. I think his training is going very well.
LOL... what nonsense.

You get the most neuromuscular adaptation when your are freshest. End of.

I'm not saying it's never a good idea to train when tired - there are good reasons for doing so (endurance, mental strength), but improving your skating technique is NOT one of them.
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Old June 16th, 2014, 01:44 PM   #28
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LOL... what nonsense.

You get the most neuromuscular adaptation when your are freshest. End of.

I'm not saying it's never a good idea to train when tired - there are good reasons for doing so (endurance, mental strength), but improving your skating technique is NOT one of them.
Learning a new skill, you want fresh muscles for their precision. Once you have a skill down you need to build your form and stability in a fatigued state.

Practicing when fresh does little for once your worn down. However praticing when your fatigued covers this and further improves upon the fresh state as well.

I also suppose this is limited to ones mental state. Being mentally fatigued limits your progress, so if your not only tired physically, you can bet on not making much progress when your training yourself in relation to form.

Not being able to focus on form once just your body is fatigued is a personal problem, and likely a reason why we have pros in sports as they can still be body concious even when their on fire.
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Old July 6th, 2014, 05:45 PM   #29
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Getting close now, seven weeks of training left.

Monday July 7, starts with a 55 minute fast run followed by a leg workout and an evening skate 35-45km.

Wednesday is a 65 minute hill run, repeated up and down, fast down and slow up. Body weight workout and an evening skate, fast.

Thursday I'll do a 50 minute run and a long skate 60-70km

Saturday is the long run this week a 2:00 hr run and a 60 minute walk/jog, one minute walk/two minute run

Monday July 14, starts with a 55 minute fast run an afternoon leg workout and an evening skate 35-45km.

Wednesday is an 1:10 hill run, up and down, body weight workout and an evening skate fast.

Thursday is a 50 minute run and a evening long skate 70-80 km

Saturday long run 2:15 with a 1:15 minute walk/jog, 1 min walk/2 min jog

If I can make it through the training I should do good at the race.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 12:49 AM   #30
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how do you like all the running?
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Old July 7th, 2014, 03:06 AM   #31
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how do you like all the running?
I would say I'm kindling an old flame. Running was my passion at one time. However these distances are going to be a challenge. I'll be running marathon distances before training is done. Which should help me get down to a descent race weight, shooting for 160lbs I'm 169 at the moment which is 16lbs off my 185 starting weight.

My problem is getting the km's on my skates. Usually I'm good at getting my skates done even if I'm bored or tired but bored and tired is a real motivation killer and skating at the end of the day can be rough but it will hopefully give me the mental dissapline to push on. Basically it's all an experiment and I'm the mad scientist.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 11:44 AM   #32
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My problem is getting the km's on my skates. Usually I'm good at getting my skates done even if I'm bored or tired but bored and tired is a real motivation killer and skating at the end of the day can be rough but it will hopefully give me the mental dissapline to push on. Basically it's all an experiment and I'm the mad scientist.
Less running, more skating would seem to be an obvious solution...
Running's a nice cross training activity, but this is a skate race, and you should prioritize skate mileage.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 01:29 PM   #33
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Also, when I was training for LeMans I didn't think of it in terms of distance, but rather in terms of time, as it is a time limit race rather than a fixed distance race.

Therefore I would always head out with the specific aim of skating for a set number of hours. Of course I had a very good idea of how much distance I would cover, but I just found that it helps to think in terms of reaching a time goal rather than a distance goal.

You must surely know from your experience last year that an efficient aerobic sustem that enables you to keep going for hours upon hours is far more important than AT pace. In fact I would say that tempo pace that typically comprises the 1-2hr workout is pretty much irrelevant for a 24hr race.
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Old July 7th, 2014, 03:46 PM   #34
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Less running, more skating would seem to be an obvious solution...
Running's a nice cross training activity, but this is a skate race, and you should prioritize skate mileage.
Yes it's a skating race, but more important it is also an endurance race. Honestly I can train my legs for endurance better with running than skating. It takes less than half the time to tire my legs when I run than when I skate. So time wise I'm hoping running will give me a great degree of endurance.

The closer I get to race day the more skating I'll be doing. I'm basically trying to find the most effective method of training for the time I have to train in. Running, except for Saturdays long run is very time effective and allows me to utilize the extra time I have in the am.


Last year I started pushing for longer skates to early and lost all motivation by race day. This year I will slowly increase my skating times in hoping to peek out at race time. To be honest the hardest part of this training is training alone all the time. I have never been able to train with another skater so over time skating for long periods gets so boring and drawn out it's hard to keep focused and motivated. So this year I added running and an endurance coach. I'll know soon enough if it's the right mix for me.
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Old July 8th, 2014, 10:02 AM   #35
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Getting close now, seven weeks of training left.


Thursday I'll do a 50 minute run and a long skate 60-70km

Thursday is a 50 minute run and a evening long skate 70-80 km

If I can make it through the training I should do good at the race.
I don't understand this training program. How does a skate of less than 100 km prepare for a 24-hour race? (unless it is a team of 6 or more people)
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Old July 8th, 2014, 10:29 AM   #36
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Yes it's a skating race, but more important it is also an endurance race. Honestly I can train my legs for endurance better with running than skating. It takes less than half the time to tire my legs when I run than when I skate. So time wise I'm hoping running will give me a great degree of endurance.

The closer I get to race day the more skating I'll be doing. I'm basically trying to find the most effective method of training for the time I have to train in. Running, except for Saturdays long run is very time effective and allows me to utilize the extra time I have in the am.


Last year I started pushing for longer skates to early and lost all motivation by race day. This year I will slowly increase my skating times in hoping to peek out at race time. To be honest the hardest part of this training is training alone all the time. I have never been able to train with another skater so over time skating for long periods gets so boring and drawn out it's hard to keep focused and motivated. So this year I added running and an endurance coach. I'll know soon enough if it's the right mix for me.
Well I can sympathize with the long hours, but if it was fun and easy then everyone would be doing it.
You want to start tapering 4 weeks before race day and not less than 3 weeks out. That means you should be approaching your peak mileage weeks over the next month or so.

For Le Mans I did a couple of days of 150km days 4-5 weeks out, and even with that I found the last 6 hours of the race really tough going. Running fitness won't help you that much; running toughens you, but skating is low impact so crossover benefits from high impact running doesn't carry over so much - you don't see elite cyclists doing much running, right? It's all about mileage for them. 6-7 weeks out you should be absolutely be ramping up the mileage, not just starting to do it.

And also, don't underestimate the importance of just spending time in your skates for the sake of ensuring that you can do just that - if you want to skate for 24 hours then you better make sure that you feet aren't complaining after a mere 6-7hrs in skates. Blisters and hotspots will cripple you and end your race prematurely, especially so the more tired you get which contributes to a deterioration in form, and also if you encounter rain at any point which tends to exacerbate any rubbing inside the boot.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 01:46 AM   #37
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I don't understand this training program. How does a skate of less than 100 km prepare for a 24-hour race? (unless it is a team of 6 or more people)
I'm not doing any three digit skates until I'm 4-5 weeks from race day. Right now I'm pushing hard on every skate. Some days I'm hammering up and down the hill, other days I'm chasing cyclists on the flatter trails. In a week or two my trainer will be riding with me to keep me on pace as I increase my distance. There are no guide lines for races like this. An individual needs to have a great understanding of their own strengths and weaknesses. If this doesn't work maybe I'll learn something new about myself that will help me do better. Until then I'll take the advice of my ultra distance trainer and my own self awareness. I don't know why my running is even an issue. It's an added asset that allows me to train harder without an increased chance of a training injury.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 02:00 AM   #38
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Well I can sympathize with the long hours, but if it was fun and easy then everyone would be doing it.
You want to start tapering 4 weeks before race day and not less than 3 weeks out. That means you should be approaching your peak mileage weeks over the next month or so.

For Le Mans I did a couple of days of 150km days 4-5 weeks out, and even with that I found the last 6 hours of the race really tough going. Running fitness won't help you that much; running toughens you, but skating is low impact so crossover benefits from high impact running doesn't carry over so much - you don't see elite cyclists doing much running, right? It's all about mileage for them. 6-7 weeks out you should be absolutely be ramping up the mileage, not just starting to do it.

And also, don't underestimate the importance of just spending time in your skates for the sake of ensuring that you can do just that - if you want to skate for 24 hours then you better make sure that you feet aren't complaining after a mere 6-7hrs in skates. Blisters and hotspots will cripple you and end your race prematurely, especially so the more tired you get which contributes to a deterioration in form, and also if you encounter rain at any point which tends to exacerbate any rubbing inside the boot.
I'm not sure what the end results of the race are going to be. I do know, that know matter what shape I'm in at race time. The race is going to be a whole lot of fun on the way to hell. I will give it all I have and see what happens, I can't ask for more.
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Old July 12th, 2014, 05:31 AM   #39
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just throwing this out there, take it or leave it.
Rather than running long distances in the morning and skating a long distance later the same day, maybe try this instead:
Skate a hard workout in the morning, followed by a long skate workout in the afternoon. This may accomplish two things: it will get your feet and legs used to long days in skates (and in skating form), and it will teach you to push on even in a fatigued state. You will desperately need both of these things for a 24 hour skate event.
Fact is, five or six weeks out from your event, you are not going to appreciably build your endurance base anymore. It's there or it never will be. I understnad your strategy of fatiguing your system in the morning, then pushing through a long skate workout in the afternoon. But it would be better to fatigue your system with a hard skate effort, becuase skating and running are not the same. You really would benefit from getting used to many hours in the skates. And while it does make some sense to do the run/skate combo early on in the program, at this point, i would seriously consider doing the hard skate/long skate daily doubles.
Hope this helps, and stay focused.
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Old August 21st, 2014, 09:28 AM   #40
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I believe the race is this weekend - good luck!

Am seriously thinking about doing Montreal next year.
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