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Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

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Old May 22nd, 2014, 05:16 AM   #1
Photog101
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Red face Snyder Hanger replacement

It has been years since I changed out a hanger on anything. I have been away from skating for almost 15 years. When I dug out the skates, I pulled them apart to re-cushion and clean them up. I found that all 4 hangers were cracked where the King Pin Lock Nut draws down. I already did one and went through at least a dozen bits to drill out the rivets on the left plate. (I don't remember them being this bad in the past, but I did have a press to punch them out) I also don't remember having to use a hand impact with a phillips driver to remove the front screws that go through the plate into the hanger.

I used the search function [Snyder & hanger] and after reading many articles, I came up dry on the subject. Probably because I don't use a computer very well.

Back in the day, I had a small arbor press, which I had made adapters to remove the rivets (pushed them out), after I had removed the heads with a Dremel cut-off wheel. I also had a set of rivet dies, that I could switch out, to upset the rivets.

Long story short, my skate tools are no longer around. Installing the rivets is no big thing. I have a set of vice-grips that I made for another project ... so I can use them to upset the rivets. Even if I didn't have those, I could use my bench vise to make it happen.

I have toy-ed with the thought about having the rivets removed with a wire EDM, but I will have to find a shop that would do this for me.

SO, how does DocSk8 remove the rivets from Snyder plates to get the hangers off? I still have one plate that needs both hangers replaced. Other than send the plates to Sure-Grip.

One other question, please? What size are the axles on Snyder Imperials? 7mm or 9/32"?

Thanx in advance:
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Old May 23rd, 2014, 09:12 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Photog101 View Post
It has been years since I changed out a hanger on anything. I have been away from skating for almost 15 years. When I dug out the skates, I pulled them apart to re-cushion and clean them up. I found that all 4 hangers were cracked where the King Pin Lock Nut draws down.

Got pix?? Either i am not getting the message or you have something new.

I already did one and went through at least a dozen bits to drill out the rivets on the left plate. (I don't remember them being this bad in the past, but I did have a press to punch them out)

The rivets are hard for a reason and as far as I know they have not changed over the years.

I also don't remember having to use a hand impact with a phillips driver to remove the front screws that go through the plate into the hanger.

You have the hanger lock screws?? I have never seen any actually installed. If they have been in the hangers since the sk8s were new there may have been some galvanic corrosion going on.

I used the search function [Snyder & hanger] and after reading many articles, I came up dry on the subject. Probably because I don't use a computer very well.

Probably because they are not easy to deal with.

Back in the day, I had a small arbor press, which I had made adapters to remove the rivets (pushed them out), after I had removed the heads with a Dremel cut-off wheel. I also had a set of rivet dies, that I could switch out, to upset the rivets.

Interesting. I was not aware Snyder rivets could be set with a hand press.

Long story short, my skate tools are no longer around. Installing the rivets is no big thing. I have a set of vice-grips that I made for another project ... so I can use them to upset the rivets. Even if I didn't have those, I could use my bench vise to make it happen.

I would not suggest that.

I have toy-ed with the thought about having the rivets removed with a wire EDM, but I will have to find a shop that would do this for me.

That would be the cleanest way.

SO, how does DocSk8 remove the rivets from Snyder plates to get the hangers off? I still have one plate that needs both hangers replaced. Other than send the plates to Sure-Grip.

Doc Sk8 does not use the "other than" method.. I let SG /Snyder do it. Their method is rather brutal but effective.. and I don't have to worry about it being done improperly.

One other question, please? What size are the axles on Snyder Imperials? 7mm or 9/32"?

Snyder axles (all the same OD, no matter the truck on full size plates) are a straight profile, different from the face center of the Sure Grip axles. All of the American "7mm" axles are 9/32 x 32 thread. The best thing to put in Snyder trucks are Snyder axles. Past that, some fancy boring may be necessary.


Hope that helps.
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Old May 24th, 2014, 02:00 AM   #3
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Doc:

Thanx for the quick response. I have to leave out of town tomorrow, but when I return, I'll take some photos and attempt to attach them. I have all the camera gear packed to do a photo assignment at a couple of Memorial Day parades.

To all Have a Blessed Memorial Day.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 12:00 AM   #4
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Doc:

Here are two hangers that have the broken locking area for the king pins.

Here are a couple of hangers that I removed. The first was when I had a press set up to move the rivets once I had knocked off the heads on the plate (boot) side.



Here is another one that I removed without a press, just a hammer and punch method. After I split the rivet with a die grinder. This is the brutal method.



After going through some old boxes with skate parts, I came across my old vise grips that I had made for upsetting rivets. I also cut the rivets down about 1/16" as they are way to long unless you have a hydraulic press that will make a really large head.









I hope that these photos make sense to you.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 04:37 AM   #5
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Smile photog 101 I have never seen a broken synder hanger, like yours.

In all they years of my skating I have never seen a synder hanger broken like yours.

1) It makes me think that 1/2" (depth/height of the nut) nut is not screwed down all the way onto the hanger. All that nut does is pinch the kingpin bolt, so it does not loosen, causing a misadjustment of the hanger/cushions.


a) But if that nut is not screwed all the way down onto the hanger, I could see how you could break it. There would be a gap between the nut and the hanger and when you landed on the skate or put weight on the skate at an angle you would bend that aluminum casting around the king pin bolt. Eventually breaking off that aluminum casting tab.



b) Are you sure that nut is being adjusted correctly/is adjusted all the way down?


2) I have broken the heel of a Gold Star Boot.

a) I have broken 1-2 king pin bolts.

b) I have snapped the rivets off the hanger/plate.

c) I have bent 1-2 axels.

3) But I have never broken that tab that goes around the king pin bolt. Nor have I heard or ever seen anybody else break one.


4) You must not have that nut screwed down all the way onto the hanger, tightly.

Larry O
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Old June 1st, 2014, 06:25 AM   #6
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Default Synder life time warranty

Many moons ago, one hanger on my Snyder Imperial plate broke loose. The rink owner where I skated sent the plates to Snyder. They not only repaired the defective hanger, they also added additional strength to all the hangers by drilling, threading, and screwing the hangers to the plate from the reverse side(@ no cost to me). I believe SureGrip still honors that warranty. Hope you didn't void the warranty when you worked on it.

The only thing you lose by trying to get SureGrip to fix it is the time you will be without your plates during repair.

Maybe then you can KEEP ROLLIN
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Old June 1st, 2014, 02:54 PM   #7
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Doc:

Here are two hangers that have the broken locking area for the king pins.

I have seen it, but on a Super Deluxe.

I hope that these photos make sense to you.
Photos make perfect sense. I seriously doubt you can correctly set a Snyder rivet even with the vise grips. The main clamping force of the rivet comes from the shaft expanding in the holes in the plate and the hanger, not the head expanding.

When Snyder sets the hanger rivets there is a large amount of material remaining behind the plate. The rivets do not have a head on the back side of the plate per se. There is a nub sticking out and you can see the dimple from the setting tool.

I have a 12 ton press and still send hangers that need replacing to Snyder.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 03:10 PM   #8
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Many moons ago, one hanger on my Snyder Imperial plate broke loose. The rink owner where I skated sent the plates to Snyder. They not only repaired the defective hanger, they also added additional strength to all the hangers by drilling, threading, and screwing the hangers to the plate from the reverse side



(@ no cost to me). I believe SureGrip still honors that warranty. Hope you didn't void the warranty when you worked on it.

Possibly...

The only thing you lose by trying to get SureGrip to fix it is the time you will be without your plates during repair.

They try to turn them in a couple of days.


Maybe then you can KEEP ROLLIN
Getting a pre Hanger Lock plate upgraded most likely will not be free any more.
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Old June 1st, 2014, 03:32 PM   #9
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1) It makes me think that 1/2" (depth/height of the nut) nut The nut has a name. "Crossbar hex nut." See item 10

is not screwed down all the way onto the hanger.

Not just "screwed down". Torqued.

All that nut does is pinch the kingpin bolt, so it does not loosen, causing a misadjustment of the hanger/cushions.

All?? That is the whole point of the crossbar hex nut. However, running it slightly loose can cause more than an action mis adjustment. It can also cause the king pin threads to weld themselves into the hanger. Heck you could have the king pin come out while sk8ing. NEVER run your Snyders (or any other sk8s that has them) with loose crossbar hex nuts.

a) But if that nut is not screwed all the way down onto the hanger, I could see how you could break it. There would be a gap between the nut and the hanger and when you landed on the skate or put weight on the skate at an angle you would bend that aluminum casting around the king pin bolt. Eventually breaking off that aluminum casting tab.

I agree, but more so on the Super Deluxe. Most of the weight on the Imperial action is on the pivot pin.

2) I have broken the heel of a Gold Star Boot.

a) I have broken 1-2 king pin bolts.

b) I have snapped the rivets off the hanger/plate.

Interesting.. I have seen one or 2 hangers where the rivets pulled through in person, but never seen a sheared one...

c) I have bent 1-2 axels.

3) But I have never broken that tab that goes around the king pin bolt. Nor have I heard or ever seen anybody else break one.

As I stated I have seen it.

4) You must not have that nut screwed down all the way onto the hanger, tightly.

Larry O
Quite possibly. That is one of the reasons I replace the whole Snyder king pin and rubber suspension. The version below is from when there were still Snyder WD Ti king pins available.



Since the Crossbar hex nut is no longer required for adjustments, I use some blue Vibra-Tite on the Crossbar hex nut and king pin threads on my sk8s.
Below is the version that uses the hollow steel king pin and the common 3/8 x 24 self locking nut.



The reverse king pin is much easier to deal with than the original design.

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Old June 2nd, 2014, 05:32 AM   #10
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Smile All very interesting. Photog 101 willl hopefull tell us why the hanger broke?????

1) If you don't know how to adjust a skate then you should not be adjusting them.

2) Most skaters in artistic skating don't use Synders. So most of the modifications I see are worthless. The Synder design is priceless and I feel the modifications in the kin pin make the skate worse. I don't like how the nut replacing the king pin protrudes higher than a straight flat king pin bolt.


The synder king pin is not hard to adjust and once adjusted there is no need for constant tampering with. Adjust it and leave it alone...Jeez...

If you feel the cross bar needs to be torqued, please don't work on my skates. It's not necessary. I have never ever seen any artistic skater, owner or teacher ever pull out a torque wrench and adjust the crossbar nut. That is just plain stupid. Give me a break! Are you guys for real?


Then you just loc-ite the cross bar nut. What a joke. You should be shot!

There is good reason to let rivets break. If they don't break, maybe you will break your angle. Just like a race car. They are design to break apart and dissipate energy. If they don't break the energy stays in your foot causing injury.


Anyways very interesting stuff. Thanks for the post. It just amazes me how much money people will waste on their skates. Just learn how to skate and everything else will take care of itself.

Larry O
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 07:28 AM   #11
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All I can say is WOW! This is not the type of forum that I signed up for.

Ask a simple question and you get a tirade from someone other than whom the question was asked.

BTW, when it comes to a torque wrench, I have used one starting back in the 60's to get an idea on the break away torque on the kingpin so that I could be close to resetting the tension on new cushions to as close as the skater was used to. 90% of the time, there was no further adjustment needed.

And as for artistic skaters not skating on Snyders, you need to come to Michigan. There are plenty of artistic and dance people still skating on Classics and Imperials, myself included.

To Doc: I took the screw for the hanger lock system to a machine shop and your intuition was correct. It was a galvanic action that locked the screw up.
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 07:51 AM   #12
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Smile Photog 101 sorry for the shirade.

1) I was talking about the torque on the cross bar nut?

2) It has been posted that synders are not the choice of champion artistic skaters today. Old skaters like myself like synders.

3) I guess the broken hanger was broken because you forced the nut off cracking the hanger. You mentioned galvanic action. I'm sure that is not common.

4) Doc went into great detail answering my post.

5) Sorry for the rant. It just didn't make sense everything that was said or what is being preached for upgrades by Doc on synder skates. Synder does not show Docs modifications. Synder does it right.



Sorry. Even Doc said you cannot repair your hangers yourself. I disagree.


Sincerely,


Larry Otani
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Old June 2nd, 2014, 02:40 PM   #13
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1) If you don't know how to adjust a skate then you should not be adjusting them.

Oh?? I cannot count the number of sk8rs, and rink employees that do just that. It's not a perfect world.

2) Most skaters in artistic skating don't use Synders.

And??

So most of the modifications I see are worthless.

I have many many Snyder customers that will tell you to your face, you are full of lost in the past bull crap. I own several pair of Snyders and every one of them perform far better than they did stock.

The Synder design is priceless

I beg to differ.

and I feel the modifications in the kin pin make the skate worse.

Ever sk8 one?? I do not think so. In fact, based on this if it works don't fix it tirade, I know you have not.

Let me remind you of a few things.

1) No mechanical device it perfect. Improvement is always possible. So that shoots your "priceless" argument in the foot.
2) Anything that makes a sk8 easier to work on is an improvement. Especially something that improves the ease and accuracy of the adjustment. The reverse king pin does just that.
3) I got into the business because of whiny old "experts" like you. If it was up to folks like you we would still be rolling on wood wheels. In fact, one of the reasons the Snyder brand is on life support is they are worried about annoying their old customers like you..who don't buy Snyders anyway, they already own them.

I don't like how the nut replacing the king pin protrudes higher than a straight flat king pin bolt.

You are entitled to be incorrect in your assessment. Snyder likes it. Don't believe me?? Go look @ the Royal pix on the web site. BTW: I don't like the fact you have not read or have chosen to ignore my rules for posting here.

The synder king pin is not hard to adjust

Compared to what??

and once adjusted there is no need for constant tampering with. Adjust it and leave it alone...Jeez...

Ease of action adjustment allows sk8rs to quickly compensate for wheel changes or changes in floor conditions. Tell me, have you "tampered" with yours lately?? I have worked on a lot of Snyders in the last 15 years. Many of them have needed hangers changed out for the very reasons you just stated. The action and pivots were never "tampered" with. The pivot pins were never lubed or adjusted. They are the wear point in the Snyder action and need to be lubed and replaced from time to time. Worn out pivot pins wreck the pivot cup and the hangers. Not to mention cushions hard as rocks that had no resilience (not that rubber has much to begin with) left in them.


If you feel the cross bar needs to be torqued, please don't work on my skates. It's not necessary. I have never ever seen any artistic skater, owner or teacher ever pull out a torque wrench and adjust the crossbar nut. That is just plain stupid. Give me a break! Are you guys for real?

You need to get real. "Torquing" does not require a torque wrench. Torquing to spec does.

Then you just loc-ite the cross bar nut. What a joke. You should be shot!

Really?? If the adjustment is on the other end, there is no need to ever loosen the cross bar nut. It's not a joke at all. However, your blind denial of the possibilities of the improvements possible are quite ludicrous. BTW all the various blue thread lockers can be easily negated with solvent. Do it all the time.

There is good reason to let rivets break. If they don't break, maybe you will break your angle.

And which "angle" would that be??

Just like a race car. They are design to break apart and dissipate energy. If they don't break the energy stays in your foot causing injury.

Betcha need high top boots for ankle support too?? Say, if I send you my address would you send me some of that prescription ogre you are smoking?? Or are you on crack?? Look at the Snyder Hanger lock ad. Over 5400 pounds to shear to break that improved hanger. I seriously doubt you or any other sk8r could generate enough pressure to break that set up.

OK Mr. Snyder expert. Explain where this oh so important "break away" safety feature is located in the Snyder World Dominator or Advantage. How about the ATLAS plates or the Roll Lines?? The Art Pro Line, the Skater plates from Spain.... need I go on?? Since none of them have hangers, none of them have this "safety" feature. But I have not noted a spike in ankle injuries from this feature being missing.


Anyways very interesting stuff. Thanks for the post. It just amazes me how much money people will waste on their skates. Just learn how to skate and everything else will take care of itself.

Larry O

Now that really cracks me up. Just another I'm a superior so I know more than everyone else sk8r. I know quite a few sk8rs that sk8 very well and like what I have done for the performance of their Snyders. Sk8rs I sk8 with. Happy sk8rs.

So I suggest you carefully read the rules for posting here before launching on another tirade... Do it again and it will be the last time because you will find yourself on a very short list of objectionable members that seem to thing rules don't apply to them.

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Old June 2nd, 2014, 02:52 PM   #14
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Sorry for the rant. It just didn't make sense everything that was said or what is being preached for upgrades by Doc on synder skates. Synder does not show Docs modifications. Synder does it right.

I suggest you look at the Snyder page on the SG web site. The Royal most certainly has a reverse king pin. So do the click action Imperial and Super Deluxe sk8s. So much for your "expertise"

Sorry. Even Doc said you cannot repair your hangers yourself. I disagree.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani
Again, you are entitled to you incorrect opinion. However, here are a couple of reasons to never replace Snyder hangers yourself.

1) Most sk8rs do not have the correct tools. They may think they do, but I seriously doubt it. I certainly do not and I have way more tools than the average sk8r. Hell, I carry more tools to sk8 than the average rink. Fortunately, my local rink (Neville Roller Drome) is rolling way up on the power curve tool wise.

2) I will never fix a riveted Snyder hanger. Why?? I do not want any exposure to potential liability if my repair becomes an inadvertent "safety feature".


OK, this thread is closed now.
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