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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates.

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Old August 15th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #21
slowsk8
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Discussing the inline or quad toe flick is another example of how skaters focus too much on their stroke, and to little on its purpose, which is to laterally displace the the center of mass of their body further and faster.
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No most don't spend enough time on their stroke.
We all know it's purpose, to make us go faster with less effort.
displace the center of mass of their body further and faster.
In English that means go further faster
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Old August 15th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #22
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No most don't spend enough time on their stroke.
We all know it's purpose, to make us go faster with less effort.
displace the center of mass of their body further and faster.
In English that means go further faster
When our mate Dillo says it he means side to side, not forward.

Personally I think the less your body is going side to side with the same amount of push the better.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #23
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When our mate Dillo says it he means side to side, not forward.

Personally I think the less your body is going side to side with the same amount of push the better.
I think he knows, even when going straight we should be pushing to the side to, displace the center of mass of the body further and faster.
And hopefully take the rest of the body with it.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 12:59 AM   #24
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When our mate Dillo says it he means side to side, not forward.

Personally I think the less your body is going side to side with the same amount of push the better.
Then you have yet to grasp the whole point of this thread for explaining the science of the optimum skating stroke form.
Going faster demands MORE LATERAL PUSH FORCE (**ADDED)=>APPLIED OVER MORE DISTANCE, and can only be achieved by either a greater displacement of mass, a higher level of peak lateral body velocity (requiring more force) per stroke, or preferably BOTH.

If laterally shifting the body's center of mass further & faster was not critically important, then upright skaters could sustain similar speed to what down low skating form gives.

You certainly know this is not the case at all. Going fast on skates demands getting low, and the primary benefit of skating low is to facilitate wider strokes that can move the body laterally further & faster with each stroke, because of the better horizontal leverage angle and leg reach this position affords.

The lower horizontal leg angle gives more muscle leverage for producing a more HORIZONTALLY powerful leg trust, which gives the maximum lateral center of mass displacement, reaching peak horizontal force levels, and the highest velocity of lateral body movement possible during the stroke.

Just watch serious elite skaters training on the slide board. What is it they are training to accomplish? ---> rapid acceleration of their body mass laterally to develop the highest peak lateral force and hit the maximum possible lateral velocity "delta-V" they can achieve during the leg thrust.

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Old August 16th, 2013, 01:17 AM   #25
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Then you have yet to grasp the whole point of this thread for explaining the science of the optimum skating stroke form.
Going faster demands MORE LATERAL PUSH FORCE, and can only be achieved by either a greater displacement of mass, a greater level of peak lateral velocity per stroke, or preferably BOTH.

If laterally shifting the body's center of mass further & faster was not critically important, then upright skaters could sustain similar speed to what down low skating form gives.

You certainly know this is not the case at all. Going fast on skates demands getting low, and the primary benefit of skating low is to facilitate wider strokes that can move the body laterally further & faster with each stroke, because of the better horizontal leverage angle and leg reach this postion affords.

The lower horizontal leg angle gives more muscle leverage for producing a more HORIZONTALLY powerful leg trust, which gives the maximum lateral center of mass displacement, reaching peak horizontal force levels, at highest velocity in the shortest amount of time.

Just watch serious elite skaters training on the slide board. What is it they are training to accomplish? ---> rapid acceleration of their body mass laterally to develop the highest peak lateral force and hit the maximum possible lateral velocity "delta-V" they can achieve during the leg thrust.

-Armadillo
In English: More knee bend lets you have a longer push giving more power per stroke.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 01:35 AM   #26
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In English: More knee bend lets you have a longer push giving more power per stroke.
Only if you orient these knee bends (and corresponding knee straightenings) in a well LEANED OVER plane, that is as close to horizontal as you can maintain, and you also direct them laterally at near 90 to your direction of travel.

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Old August 16th, 2013, 09:33 AM   #27
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What you do on a slide board is move your body from side to side because its a slide board

Its not what actually happens when wheels are attached and you are travelling forward at 30+ kph.

It might be a good way for you to visualise what you are trying to do with your push but moving your entire body as far to the side is not the goal.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 02:25 PM   #28
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Only if you orient these knee bends (and corresponding knee straightenings) in a well LEANED OVER plane, that is as close to horizontal as you can maintain, and you also direct them laterally at near 90 to your direction of travel.
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It might be a good way for you to visualise what you are trying to do with your push but moving your entire body as far to the side is not the goal.
The wheels on a skate are lined up parallel to the length of a foot. Assuming that you have decent (or any) bearings, any force applied in a direction along that line is next to completely useless, since the wheels will just roll without providing any force to propel you what with Newton's third law requiring an opposite force to react to the push to make it be constructive. Therefore, the only applied force that does anything is at 90 degrees to the direction of the wheels' roll. Assuming that you keep your toes pointed in the direction of travel, that is indeed perpendicular to the direction of travel.

We can deduce that turning your feet 90 degrees to the direction of travel and pushing that way doesn't help. You are (should be?) moving too fast to get a good push, not to mention that it is hard to do physiologically without standing up. By pushing to the side instead, you extend the length of time you have to make a push because the foot is rolling along with you. It is also easier to give a nice long side push given the way that our bodies are constructed.

I'm still not convinced that you should always keep your toes perfectly pointed forward and you should push at 90 degrees to your direction of travel. It is close.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 03:11 PM   #29
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I'm still not convinced that you should always keep your toes perfectly pointed forward and you should push at 90 degrees to your direction of travel. It is close.
This has been the most effective way for me to explain to people what we are after in a stride. I typically come across people who figure running on skates is how you do it.straight back push which kicks the person behind you.

I am fully aware that when you stride, your legs are not 90 deg. to your body, but this has proven anecdotally to be the best way for me to TRY to push. It is the way I teach stride off skates, and I will likely continue to see positive results.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #30
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What you do on a slide board is move your body from side to side because its a slide board

Its not what actually happens when wheels are attached and you are travelling forward at 30+ kph.

It might be a good way for you to visualise what you are trying to do with your push but moving your entire body as far to the side is not the goal.
Please watch this elite skater head on view video. starting @42 seconds, and then perhaps re-think your statement above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmFZxNEuJH8

Of course a slide board is not the same deal as real skating.
The lateral amplitude of your sideways displacements may be a bit wider on the slide board, but not all that much.

The main difference is that, with real skating strokes, there is a significant amount of carving of arcs happening to steer laterally back and forth across the line of travel. This carving aspect of the strokes adds a whole extra level of consideration to the analysis.

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Old August 16th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #31
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comparing apples to oranges.... this double push example.

this is a typical situation in which cost/benefit trade-offs are being made in which the penalty of the dramatic side to side motion is worth it because the increase to effective power output is greater than the penalty.

My .02... In and of itself, lateral body shift is an unavoidable, unproductive and unwanted result of action/reaction. Sure, lateral shift happens... but it is not something to strive for.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 08:53 PM   #32
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comparing apples to oranges.... this double push example.

this is a typical situation in which cost/benefit trade-offs are being made in which the penalty of the dramatic side to side motion is worth it because the increase to effective power output is greater than the penalty.

My .02... In and of itself, lateral body shift is an unavoidable, unproductive and unwanted result of action/reaction. Sure, lateral shift happens... but it is not something to strive for.
Illuminating the narrowness of this view is exactly the the primary reason I started this thread.

Work = Force x Distance -- and that distance can only be the amount that you are laterally displacing your body's center of mass.

Now, you can do the same amount of work with a shorter distance, but this means you will need to sustain a higher level of force.

For short races and sprints the higher force with less lateral displacement can work, but for longer periods of skating, it puts too much stress on the muscles and cannot be sustained.

So, the challenge is to find the right balance between just going for the peak sustainable stroke force with less lateral shifting versus the wider lateral displacement of the body, but with less intense effort from the muscles with every stroke.

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Old August 16th, 2013, 09:38 PM   #33
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Work = Force x Distance -- and that distance can only be the amount that you are laterally displacing your body's center of mass.
By lateral, do you mean parallel to the plane of the floor? I suspect not, since I don't think anyone would argue that jumping up and down makes you go faster. I think what you mean is perpendicular to the line of travel, and then your statement is simply not true. It should be perpendicular to the line of the foot. The foot is facing predominantly the same way as the line of travel of the center of mass, but it does not have to line up perfectly.

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Please watch this elite skater head on view video. starting @42 seconds, and then perhaps re-think your statement above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmFZxNEuJH8
Skip ahead to about 2:10 for a side view. The skater is not pushing at 90 degrees. I would call it closer to 70.

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This has been the most effective way for me to explain to people what we are after in a stride. I typically come across people who figure running on skates is how you do it.straight back push which kicks the person behind you.

I am fully aware that when you stride, your legs are not 90 deg. to your body, but this has proven anecdotally to be the best way for me to TRY to push. It is the way I teach stride off skates, and I will likely continue to see positive results.
I completely agree that you have to teach people to push to the side because many of them naturally try to push backwards. I even understand using an exaggerated example. However, there has been an insistence that 90 degrees is the absolute ideal. Saying 90 degrees instead of "to the side" and defending it with vigor makes it sound like an engineering truth. I highly doubt the science behind the claim.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #34
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My .02... In and of itself, lateral body shift is an unavoidable, unproductive and unwanted result of action/reaction. Sure, lateral shift happens... but it is not something to strive for.
Bingo

If the skater in that video you linked was trying to shift his body mass from side to side his body would have been moving side to side a lot more than he was.

Its funny how coaches who have trained world champions neglect to put this lateral shift detail in their advice and training manuals.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 11:25 PM   #35
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It is simply not possible to end your stride with legs 90 degrees. That is just what we try for. That is what we do on a slide board. As we move forward, our legs get forced back by the grip of our wheels on the floor. You all know what I mean. I agree with nearly everything stated on this thread.

I don't toe flick, nor do I think it has any merit. I won't argue with accomplished skaters who swear by it, but I will never teach it.
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Old August 17th, 2013, 12:02 AM   #36
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Toe pushing/flicking is either something that's going to help or hurt your overall stride length/power.

I can use a double push in inlines or quads, i can also do toe flick/pushes in either skates.

The ability to even put it into your stride depends on your ankle strength, coordination, flexibility, and how stable you can keep its positioning during a stride.

Its important to note that the farther past the ball of the foot the front wheels sit, the harder it will become to do it.

The core use of a double push seems to elude most people. When you bring your leg back in from a stride, under your shoulders, an across the centerline of your body, your strength available for work is weak. However you can take advantage of accelerating your leg early in the stride, as this will compliment your legs ability to increase your speed once you reach the point in your stride where the most power and muscle groups can be used in unison.

If your toe flick/push happens late in your stride then your probably wasting your time and energy. Your leg should never completely extend while on the floor. It will rob you of your efficiency.

Keep your feet as low to the floor as possible.

Compare an average runner with an olympic runner, they will have similar stride lengths, but the Olympic guy will have faster strides. He will be kicking the ground with greater force. If you want to skate faster, learn to run faster. Its a lot easier to find a lot of info on sprinting than speed skating.


I will also say that you can never spend too much time developing the proficiency of your stride. Even more so at working on a perfect stride when your exhausted to the point of shaky muscles.

Hopefully some of you all will get to meet up with me and some friends in September, and we can share techniques!

Skate mech: I agree, i don't teach extra skills that can be used in strides I have developed to anyone who cant at least skate around my level.

Its also important to note that at maximum power and speed, you will have to throw away certain parts of your striding form, such as a toe flick/push, because your ankles are a lot less likely to deal with that much pressure.
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Old August 17th, 2013, 12:49 AM   #37
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Toe pushing/flicking is either something that's going to help or hurt your overall stride length/power.

I can use a double push in inlines or quads, i can also do toe flick/pushes in either skates.

The ability to even put it into your stride depends on your ankle strength, coordination, flexibility, and how stable you can keep its positioning during a stride.

Its important to note that the farther past the ball of the foot the front wheels sit, the harder it will become to do it.

The core use of a double push seems to elude most people. When you bring your leg back in from a stride, under your shoulders, an across the centerline of your body, your strength available for work is weak. However you can take advantage of accelerating your leg early in the stride, as this will compliment your legs ability to increase your speed once you reach the point in your stride where the most power and muscle groups can be used in unison.

If your toe flick/push happens late in your stride then your probably wasting your time and energy. Your leg should never completely extend while on the floor. It will rob you of your efficiency.

Keep your feet as low to the floor as possible.

Compare an average runner with an olympic runner, they will have similar stride lengths, but the Olympic guy will have faster strides. He will be kicking the ground with greater force. If you want to skate faster, learn to run faster. Its a lot easier to find a lot of info on sprinting than speed skating.


I will also say that you can never spend too much time developing the proficiency of your stride. Even more so at working on a perfect stride when your exhausted to the point of shaky muscles.

Hopefully some of you all will get to meet up with me and some friends in September, and we can share techniques!

Skate mech: I agree, i don't teach extra skills that can be used in strides I have developed to anyone who cant at least skate around my level.

Its also important to note that at maximum power and speed, you will have to throw away certain parts of your striding form, such as a toe flick/push, because your ankles are a lot less likely to deal with that much pressure.
Olympic runners have longer strides than average runners and spend MORE than 50% of the time airborne with neither foot down.
Virtually no laterally directed pushing either, which means that there is very little overlap in training benefits between running & skating.

When finishing wide strokes with a proper track carve arc, that even curves back inward slightly at end, before the other foot takes over, the toe flick becomes counter productive to this process, while the heel down push through helps finish the carve arc of the stroke more thoroughly.

-Armadillo
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Old August 17th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #38
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Olympic runners have longer strides than average runners and spend MORE than 50% of the time airborne with neither foot down.
Virtually no laterally directed pushing either, which means that there is very little overlap in training benefits between running & skating

When finishing wide strokes with a proper track carve arc, that even curves back inward, slightly at end, before the other foot takes over, the toe flick becomes counter productive to this process, while the heel down push through helps finish the carve arc of the stroke.

-Armadillo

-Armadillo
Training to sprint...while not the same leg direction used to move you forward....will 100% without a doubt produce a faster skater. Its muscle coordination thats going to make you more proficient overall. Sprinting will have a MUCH faster cadence than speed skating I almost never exhaust my muscle groups that laterally push my legs apart
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