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Old August 22nd, 2006, 10:25 PM   #21
Jim White
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Agree cross drafting can be related to the prospect of team skating. But it rarely happens in practice; the benefits are much greater than the risk of problem, IMO.

I'll not name the woman who said she was happy with cross-drafting, she was a podium chick, those who know me know who she is. I'm sure she's not the only one who was happy, probably most in those packs were. Of course she very probably wouldn't loose anything, cross drafting rarely hurts anyone.

I agree people could orchastrate plenty of unwholesome strategies. But why would they want to, realistically? Sure, Bont pros could have team skated Tony. But why. They'd end up with bad times themselves. Perhaps they could have put Jim B. on the podium #1. But what would that gain? Bont's main goal is to sell boots. Glenn works hard to have his team be well respected, he's turned down several/many good skaters he could have sponsored because they were bad vibes kids. Skating is a small world, everyone knows everyone at the upper levels. Other guys in Tony's pack would see the Bont team skating and not be happy, and spread the word. So Glenn would get a gold-colored medal, and loose the respect of pro skaters in general, with plenty of boot sales lost from all levels. It'll never happen. Actually, I know Jim well enough to know he'd not have tolerated Tony being team skated, partly because he's just a very fair guy, and because it would have made his own victory stink.

Separate starts make for smaller start groups, and thus cleaner, safer starts. I think we'd all like smaller start groups if there was a good way to do it. Pro categories can be done easily. It also keeps the pack size relatively small, which also is safer. So those are reasons to do separate starts, when practical, even if we just let the remainder of the race run as the skaters evolve it.

If the vet in your pack would have gotten dropped because of being behind two slower skaters, he really didn't have the ability to keep up with the faster vet pack. Two skaters aren't going to block someone unintentionally, and why would they do it intentionally? I often get dropped from a fast pack because of being behind slow skaters, but I know it's because I'm also slow. No-one is trying to block me, they don't even care about me, they have their own problems trying to keep up.

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Don't put the word "complain" in my mouth, I'm raising an issue.
I don't see that word or implication in my posts. This is a good issue and discussion. I've had such discussions for years. Most of our disagreements here, including the points I haven't responded to, are matters of opinion, thanks for sharing yours.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 02:57 AM   #22
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Default drafting rules etc

So all this discussion is interesting to me as it seems to point out the need to have some sort of consistent guidelines (sure don't I want to say rule(s) at this point) about topics such as this for marathon events.
I make a point to talk to as many ordinary people who attend these events as possible. With few exceptions all have questions about the race, wave placement, timing, drafting, and how St. Paul is different or similar to Northshore or other events. Drafting seems to hold most of the questions as new people just do not know and face it, for a new skater it can look pretty scary. So am I dreaming to think that at some point in time someone somewhere will figuire out that people would like to know ahead of time how the game is played? Face it, most people who come to skate get into the competition aspect pretty quick. We should all be concerned about the future of these events, St. Paul as with others started out with a bang and each year the total number of skaters seems to slip a bit lower. I think if people knew that most if not all events ran with the same basic rules it would remove some of the hesitation some people might have about joining the events or sticking with the events.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 03:00 AM   #23
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...I don't see that word or implication in my posts.
just to refresh your memory
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... this is the first complaint I've heard...
If they were so NOT concerned with packs intermingling why did they publicly state that the reason they moved the vet time back three minutes was to keep the packs from intermingling? You are projecting a lot of optimism into the outlook of all of these skaters and the one time you claimed to have a concrete example, you can't come up with the name. You are confusing my examples with reality. These are concepts to illustrate a point with no reflection on any of the intent or actions of the people named.

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...cross drafting rarely hurts anyone...
Then why not let there be cross gender drafting? If other categories can do it then why seperate the genders? Like you said everyone has the same opportunity to draft?

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I agree people could orchestrate plenty of unwholesome strategies. But why would they want to, realistically? Sure, Bont pros could have team skated Tony. But why? They'd end up with bad times themselves. Perhaps they could have put Jim B. on the podium #1. But what would that gain? Bont's main goal is to sell boots.
I'm just not even going to say anything about this.

edit: Unalaska, I think most of the rules are fairly consistent in these events and I honestly believe in reduction in race participation is a reflection of a greater decline overall. Honestly, though, I think people are starting to come back to skating. Next year will tell for sure, though.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 03:15 AM   #24
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Just checked the results - congrats to Speedy and Gless for the phenomenal finish times. Hope we get race reports from you all too
Thanks Jessica, this is a great event...they did a fantastic job on everything..from the expo, the pro elimination race, the race itself and even a beer tent in the park at the finish line

You should think about this next year...you would kick butt ..the uphill sprint at the finish is made for you the hill repeats speedy and I have been doing really helped me out as I was a too far back in the pack as we broke off the main part of the course onto the finishing stretch...but I was able to get a good sprint going and passed a lot of people up the hill (which is usually not my forte) to improve my finishing position...
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 03:19 AM   #25
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So am I dreaming to think that at some point in time someone somewhere will figuire out that people would like to know ahead of time how the game is played?
Whenever you want to know, just ask. Actually, most skaters aren't concerned with details like gun-to-chip vs chip-to-chip, or cross drafting. They start where they are most comfortable, and skate their best. They find a pack they are comfortable skating with.

About 3% of skaters are concerned with team tactics. They find out the rules and plot their strategy. Variations in rules are a minor detail, they are concerned much more with which competitive skaters are in the race, and the condition of their team-mates.

Totally consistent rules will not happen because each event is an independent business. And I've never heard of a skater not skating an event because the rules are different from another event; I can't ever remember a skater not skating an event because of anything about the skate rules (sometimes they do because of how categories are set, or the prizes).
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 03:39 AM   #26
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Speedysktr:
I didn't hear anyone say why they moved start times back, and don't know why that change was made. I do know that large men's packs of pro/advanced tend to be more dangerous than small, which could be a reason for wanting to keep starting packs, which are relatively large from merging into larger packs. Cross drafting after the packs have split during miles of racing is mostly a different issue, involving things such as team skating as you suggested.

I don't know why gender cross-drafting wasn't allowed. I believe it is less accepted by the average pro/advanced skater than is category/age cross drafting. Where possible, race rules are made to be what most skaters want.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 04:10 PM   #27
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You should think about this next year...
I'm on it - I intend to do both Minnesota races next year. I probably won't be able to take any extra days off for them though, since I'm planning a trip to Ohio too
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 04:25 PM   #28
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when/where are you going in Ohio? okay I like totally missed some posts. thanks also, I made some comments in the fitness log about the race, not really a report, though, since I didnt really feel great about it. The beer tent was the bomb and so was the massage girl. So worth it. good smiley usage there, gless, btw. We got off the plane, got in a cab and walked everywhere until we got back in a cab for the airport. Duluth is the same way, btw. This event is far more viewer friendly than Duluth, particularly the last man out race. I give the event 3 snaps in a Z formation.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 04:51 PM   #29
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You didn't miss any posts - some of us Florida skaters unofficially decided to take a trip to Gless's bed and breakfast sometime next year. But if we're going to do the Idaho thing, I dunno... My boss would not be too happy to hear about all of my plans.
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Old August 23rd, 2006, 05:02 PM   #30
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You didn't miss any posts - some of us Florida skaters unofficially decided to take a trip to Gless's bed and breakfast sometime next year. But if we're going to do the Idaho thing, I dunno... My boss would not be too happy to hear about all of my plans.
not that, the other ones you and gless were quoting about race results and what not.

ck your mail, btw.

that's awesome, though. does he know? I swear, this is like the prime time to come in late august/early september-although you'd think it was chilly. Not actually right now though, but it's about to break and be so totally awesome.
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Old August 24th, 2006, 02:41 AM   #31
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some of us Florida skaters unofficially decided to take a trip to Gless's bed and breakfast sometime next year. But if we're going to do the Idaho thing, I dunno... My boss would not be too happy to hear about all of my plans.
Cool...the bed and breakfast is open and ready ....what you need to work on is "business" trips to Cinci, Idaho, and Minnesota...thats what bosses are REALLY for most just don't realize it.....there is a guy in my office who has had to go to Tampa for business a couple times a year...I keep telling him must be bored with it and in need of a substitute (especially if its around Pinellas trail skate time!)
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Old August 24th, 2006, 03:23 PM   #32
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Hmm - I'll just need to try and figure out why I need to be in those places....

Got it! We have a customer there that needs one on one assistance. On this particular date. For this many days. I'm sure he'll go for it

Technically, I can work from anywhere as long as I have an internet connection. He would never have to know....
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Old August 24th, 2006, 05:58 PM   #33
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Jim -

Concerning crossdrafting at St. Paul, I was in the Open 1 wave and after a mile or two I settled into the second pace line of the wave. As we headed west we started scooping up Advanced skaters who were in their second lap that had been dropped from their lines. By the time we got to the Meirs Park turn off there were about a half dozen Advanced skaters in various locations in our train. We were probably doing about 17-18 mph when they made their left hand turn to go under the bridge which caused the remaining skaters in the line to dodge the arms and skates of the turning skaters. Fortunately no one went down but it did cause our line to blow up and then reform further down the street. This was a negative of cross drafting between waves that started approximately 30 minutes apart. Other than that I thought that the St. Paul event was a top notch professional job from start to finish. I even set a new PB and took 7 minutes off my previous best time.

Howard
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Old August 24th, 2006, 06:09 PM   #34
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... I even set a new PB and took 7 minutes off my previous best time.

Howard
Way to go, man.
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Old August 24th, 2006, 09:32 PM   #35
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Howard, thanks for the feedback. That delayed start is something the event is concerned with. It's important to do for several reasons, but it's good to hear what actually happens so perhaps it can be fine tuned.

Thanks for the overall compliment. There are many volunteers who appreciate hearing this.

And congratulations on your time!
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Old August 24th, 2006, 11:32 PM   #36
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Jim,
I had a virtually identical experience as Howard. It is potentially a dangerous situation. If there were two pacelines moving together it would have been difficult/dangerous for advanced skaters to cut through the line on the left to get to Sibley. The advanced skaters in our line weren't aware of the situation and ended up jumping out of the line. They didn't go down the inside lane but on the outside with the open skaters.

I too, really appreciate the race and the volunteers that make it possible. It is a very memorable experience. In my opinion it is a better race than Duluth. The pro criterium races the night before were spectaculous!
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Old August 29th, 2006, 04:07 AM   #37
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I met a 63 year old woman after the race who rapped it in 1:41! She looked 63 also, if you know what I mean. Skating is a humbling experience.
And just what does 63 look like?? I was in the 60-64 year age group & the fastest person in our group had the time of 1:48 & she was 61 yrs old.

I'm 63 & people guess my age in the 50's, plus they say my legs look like a 25-30 year old. For at least 15 years I've had strangers, men & women both, who have approached me & commented on my legs, in the grocery store, department store, at a craft fair, at dances, at the fitness club, it's surprising to me that someone would approach me like that but it's still happening.

Don't make sweeping remarks about people's looks or ages. I have also done 17 full marathons, 10 half marathons & several 8k & 10k events since 1998, as a rec skater. I was 55 when I did my first marathon.

Last edited by Kathie Fry; August 29th, 2006 at 01:27 PM. Reason: added missing "begin quote" tag
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Old August 29th, 2006, 12:04 PM   #38
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Sorry about the generalization. Congrats on the great legs from skating! Maybe you could post a picture?

I think that in my post I was trying to point out that you don't necessarily have to be a genetic freak to have very respectable times at St. Paul. She looked like she was old. She skates everyday and she won my admiration. Like you, her legs were in great shape. Sorry to paint with too broad a brush! I should have been more specific.


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And just what does 63 look like?? I was in the 60-64 year age group & the fastest person in our group had the time of 1:48 & she was 61 yrs old.

I'm 63 & people guess my age in the 50's, plus they say my legs look like a 25-30 year old. For at least 15 years I've had strangers, men & women both, who have approached me & commented on my legs, in the grocery store, department store, at a craft fair, at dances, at the fitness club, it's surprising to me that someone would approach me like that but it's still happening.

Don't make sweeping remarks about people's looks or ages. I have also done 17 full marathons, 10 half marathons & several 8k & 10k events since 1998, as a rec skater. I was 55 when I did my first marathon.
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