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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates. |
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#21 |
I bet Godsk8s too!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Madison, Florida
Posts: 5,731
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As for the bearings, get ya some 7mm`s, you`ll be happier with their performance over the 8`s mainly because the 7 fit their axles better than the 8`s fit theirs, not to mention better quality choices in the 7`s.
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Genesis 12:2-3 "My neighbors listen to good music whether they like it or not" |
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#22 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 990
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K Larson: Custom Marchese boots/Ion Vanquish 3x125 frame J Larson: Custom Marchese boots/Ion Vanquish 3&1 frame www.jklracing.com/Elite Speed Team |
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#23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Newcastle NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,653
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If you are serious you will make the jump to 7mm regardless of cost.
The reason for this is ALL of the top skaters will be using 7mm they will all have a swag of wheels with 7mm bearings and as a rule they are happy to share them at training sessions etc so you can work out what works for you. If you go with 8mm you will lose this benefit. At the national titles in 2011 I lent a set of wheels to a competitor as when we arrived at the venue his wheels would not hook up so he had access to my second best ones, then beat me ![]() Iif you go 8mm now then decide you don't like your plate and need to change again you will find that all the top stuff is 7mm only and you will find it even harder to make the change as you will now have even more 8mm gear that may never be used again. |
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#24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
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This is NOT the design concept you want for getting the best speed skating performance from your skates. You want a design that turns LESS with more plate lean and a bit more foot pressure. You do not want any wiggles on the track you roll at speed. A less turn responsive speed plate design will allow you to more easily hold a more stable track line, and lose less energy. It will also allow you to push out to a leg lower and wider point with your stroke. -Armadillo
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Rollin' on AIR |
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#25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 990
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K Larson: Custom Marchese boots/Ion Vanquish 3x125 frame J Larson: Custom Marchese boots/Ion Vanquish 3&1 frame www.jklracing.com/Elite Speed Team |
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#26 | ||
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
Posts: 521
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Just my 10 cents worth ![]() Also... Quote:
And here's something -You can control your speed stability by putting better emphasis on choosing the proper 'Bushing' durometer configurations. Not enough Quad SPeed skaters (or Derby or Artistic or others) put enough emphasis on what type of set-up they have in regards to what bushings lay over their Kingpin. 45* angled KP's are NOT 'unstable' as some is stating, they just provide a much sharper and responsive turn-ability. Now if you're Speed Skating and racing straight-away's or large oval track configurations, then you aren't worried about your cross overs or flex turns as much as if you were racing on standard rink floor specs. In any case, you can help control your stability by choosing the proper durometer rating in regards to your Bushings set-up. I use a higher duro rating Bushing at the base of the KP and a lower duro rated Bushing at the top. Depending on where I'm skating and what type of track, I'll go from a full barrel Bushing /Conical Bushing configuration, to a total full Barrel Bushing set-up (top and bottom) and I may even increase the Duro rating of the Bushings... it all depends, but it works, and it works well(for me at least). I currently race and I win races, period. My Avenger plate, with 45* KP (speaking from direct experience) is MORE responsive than my Reactors, and is extremely stable at Speed!...just as stable as the Reactor plates that I left for my Avenger plates. So Yogi, There's always a personal preference factor(and that's always OK), but considering the technicality of it all, I would reconsider the Avenger as a Speed plate. That's what it was made for. Don't get me wrong; there's many other good plates out there as well ![]()
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#27 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
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The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby. Quote:
The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree. Quote:
The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees) Quote:
However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear. Quote:
It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun. Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't. I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas. -Armadillo
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#28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
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As a nationally ranked skater you know the importance of skating low and having a wide stroke that allows feet to reach to the max. horizontally. Ergonomically, the shallower action speed plate designs will have an advantage, since your ankle can lean further without turning the skate inward as much, which tends to abbreviate the full thrust of the power stroke. If you are still able to get what you feel is your stroke's full power down with Avenger plates, then great, but I suspect you would still be able to go faster with a shallower action plate design. Until you freshly compare a fully optimized speed plate geometry with your current Avenger setup, you can't necessarily assume that the Avengers are the best for you. It is possible, but a fair comparison might be worth the effort. What size boot/shoe are you? -Armadillo
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#29 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 990
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K Larson: Custom Marchese boots/Ion Vanquish 3x125 frame J Larson: Custom Marchese boots/Ion Vanquish 3&1 frame www.jklracing.com/Elite Speed Team Last edited by JandKLarson; April 30th, 2012 at 12:19 AM. |
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#30 | |
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
Posts: 521
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By the way, I privately coach and train Derby players, and I'm very involved with my fiancee's team as a whole(most of you have heard me state this previously) and I 'tech' for her personally(and she's one of their most noted Jammers), and I've seen them ( the team) perform better (especially blockers/pivots) on a wider based plates (Like Artistic plates - i.e. SG Century plates, etc) with a lower degree KP (10*-17*) depending on the plate, and using a conical bushing set up with lower rated duro, than on plates like an Avenger or a Reactor or a Snyder. Just sayin. I think it all comes down to; more than anything, to the personal preference of each skater. And that's really where all the difference lies. IMO Much respect to ya 'dillo ![]() ![]()
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: atlanta ga,
Posts: 1,047
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a proline has a 5 degree truck angle
a snyder advantage has a 15 degree truck angle and an offset toe stop! and thats the truth!!!!!!!!!!! ![]() |
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#32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
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Sorry, my bad. That makes a whole lot more sense now. I was having a hard time picturing you trying to compete effectively at a national level on a steep action DA45 plate. The Advantage has a much more typical and efficient speed plate geometry with a 15 degree kingpin angle, that is very similar to the 1/2 pound lighter Laser Slider skates I use for racing. I find that for me, the more rare 15 degree kingpin (55-60 degree action angle) plate geometry is the sweet spot for optimum speed plate performance. -Armadillo
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#33 | |
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#34 | |
Straight 'outta Coburg
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Beneath the Southern Cross
Posts: 4,838
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![]() They also listened to us as well!=Bonus!!
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-------------------------------------- My girl sk8's Derby, whats your excuse?? |
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#35 |
Guest
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didnt say he was challenging anyone, i said he was challenging to deal with, difference!
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#36 | |
Ex-Pat Wiganer
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lincoln, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,307
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![]() Sure-Grip actually say that the plate (Avenger) is aimed at "speed and derby" - so it isn't being marketed purely as a derby plate. I'm still not set on what plate I'm going to get myself as I do speed and session on my skates and don't really want to switch between skates during an evening (yes... I, and many others I know, speed skate on "ridiculous-looking" hard shell inline hockey boots - both converted to quads and not!) when I get my new boots. Sure-Grip PDF on the Avenger.
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Wigan Roller Rink, The place to be seen ![]() Now with added Daughter! |
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#37 | |
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
Posts: 521
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>>>>> Somebody answer me this( I know the answer already... just entertain me, please)... in lay terms: the "short forward mount" is something that is used in speed skating, or was devised and utilized based out of the Speed Skating Discipline, correct or not?
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
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As for the Avenger being based on the Magnum, I am really not seeing this, and if it was true, it would be best kept quiet. Yes, both come in white. Yes, both available in Mag. Yes, DA45 geometry for both (if Magnum gets the DA truck kit). Yes, both use absurd 3/8-20 BSF plate hole thread instead of 3//8-24. However, there are far more things very dissimilar, besides the SA-DA confusion, between the two different generation plates. Magnum has a much more sculpted plate shape giving a bigger and more ergonomic foot platform. Avenger is much trimmer and very sharply angled & cornered. Std. White Magnum used a crappy, fixed length, no-ball pivot, SA truck design with poorly finished cast trucks that, despite being magnesium, are not really very light. Avenger uses the slimmed down version of the original SG DA45 total boat anchor truck, with at least an adj. ball pivot, but it is still too heavy IMO. Magnum used squishy pivot cups & no ball truck, which thoroughly chokes the truck action, while Avenger has the decent Delrin pivot cups, but then mates it up with the SG too-small pivot ball and matching too-small-to-fit-a-wrench-around integral hex. Magnum placed the toe stop socket very close to the front axle - good for forward mounts. Avenger sticks the stop out further. True speed plated ignore toe stops. So, to summarize, if the Magnum was "100% designed and marketed as a Speed Plate,' then aside from its mag material low weight, I really can't see where it would be considered much of a success in that category. If it was such a success, there would be heck of a lot more NTS models floating around these days, since serious speed skaters would more typically have avoided the toe stop version when Magnums were "succeeding" in the marketplace. SO where are all the NTS Magnums hiding? If the Avenger plate design stands on the shoulders of the Magnum for its inspiration, then inspiration better mean seeing the shortcomings of a prior design and eliminating them for the next generation, because only in that role could the Magnum be much of an inspiration for designing a serious speed plate, which, IMO, the Avenger is clearly not. -Armadillo
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Rollin' on AIR Last edited by Armadillo; May 1st, 2012 at 02:03 AM. |
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#39 | ||||
I 'do' Swisher Sweet #143
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: North Los Angeles Quad Speed Skater www.SwisherSkate.com SWISHER Skating Products (coming soon)
Posts: 521
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"The Avenger plate concept was derived from the 45 degree Magnum and 45 degree Invader skate plates of the late 70’s early 80’s. Over the last few years a lot of emphasis has been placed on strong light weight products for speed and derby. In the 80’s we developed the single action Magnum speed plate for this purpose, produced in both aluminum and magnesium, this plate was very light and very strong. Recently we have seen a greater awareness for this style plate; we saw it fitting to redesign it using modern technology and what we came up with was the Avenger" Quote:
Again, a quote, verbatim- "Shortened front end: For those who want to get aggressive with their short forward mounts (Essentially a Speed Mount) can now do so with plenty of room to spare so the plate will not hang over the front of your boot. The Avenger is optimized for the short forward set up but a standard mount is still possible" But Sure Grip may be wrong. lol ![]() ![]() Quote:
Well, I'm a serious speed skater (over two decades competitively). I've skated SG Century's, Magnums, PD Reactors, Paioli plates, all competitively. All of them were good, all of them. Most recently, on the PD Reactor. I "Test Drove" an Avenger plate set up for a week before I decided to switch. I left the Reactor and I win Races on my Avenger 'speed plate'. I don't know what else to say to prove it? Sure Grip says it, I skate one successfully. Quote:
BTW, on another note: 'Dilla! Me and my Derby-sexy might be headin to Chi-town ( I have some business to handle there)... you gonna hang out with, and show us the good places to skate? We wanna hit some really cool outdoor places (as well as Rinks) and I know that Chicago is one of the best places to skate outdoors !! . .
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BONT QRC/ Swisher 'Super Elite' Avenger Mg/ Aussie Scott S.E./ Bones Swiss Ceramics I <3 Speed Skating & Derby ~ Swisher Sweet#143 (best Jammer EVER) |
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#40 |
Street Skater
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NH
Posts: 3,149
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Just a quick reality check
The Magnum is an S/A45, not a D/A 45, and the trucks(to make it a D/A45 from an S/A45) cobbled into the magnum are arbitrary, so if the avenger is a coin flip of the magnum... that's two strikes. The first strike is a pressed KP |
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