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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates.

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Old May 5th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
Cell phones do not do the forum justice. Now home on the computer.
A lot of the stuff you mention above, I didn't imply, like changing the geometry from one to another. Pivot angle is another subject, and it does have drastic affects and can be manipulated with skate gear that lends itself to the mods. Ther is one very obvious property of the D/A setup that you overlook.
The one statement you should make, you don't. Not anywhere is the statement I am looking for from you. So you don't know as much as you claim. Understanding plate lean angle is the most important part of what I tune for.... Sorry you didn't get that either( I have repeated it numerous times in our discussions. And no I'm not giving you a clue. Doc knows, I didn't get it from him either, I figured it out on my own. As long as you aren't testing it you will not know.
When I say the "turning response" of a plate, over and over and over in this thread, what do you think I mean? I have clearly explained it several times. My explanations repeatedly reference the plate's "lean angle," when I use the words "plate lean". What don't you grasp about the term "plate lean"? It is the number of degrees from vertical that the plate gets leaned, the exact same thing as your term "lean angle" means.
Anyone reading this thread can see you are starting to talk trash here.

The turn response profile of a plate is the ratio of how much "lean angle" (from vertical) it takes to produce a given amount of axle swing angle (away from neutral in the horizontal plane).

I don't need any clues from you to understand "lean angle" I have been posting explanations of this in relation to how and why the DA45 plates work the way they do, and produce the kind of performance they do, since well before you even joined the SLForum.

So before you get all condescending with me perhaps you might want to fire up the search tool and set the clock back a few years to get caught up to speed on what I laid out here well prior to your arrival.

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Old May 5th, 2012, 05:38 AM   #82
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I've never heard anyone witness a bad race performance and wonder about the plates the racer was using. lol
If you knew they always rolled Boens, and this happened just when they showed up to race with a brand new pair of DA45 Avenger plates under them. I suspect you might draw some conclusions that there was a connection between the change of plates and the poor performance.

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Old May 5th, 2012, 06:58 AM   #83
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If you knew they always rolled Boens, and this happened just when they showed up to race with a brand new pair of DA45 Avenger plates under them. I suspect you might draw some conclusions that there was a connection between the change of plates and the poor performance.

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If you always rolled Boens it is unlikely you would turn up with any other plate
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Old May 5th, 2012, 08:50 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
When I say the "turning response" of a plate, over and over and over in this thread, what do you think I mean? I have clearly explained it several times. My explanations repeatedly reference the plate's "lean angle," when I use the words "plate lean". What don't you grasp about the term "plate lean"? It is the number of degrees from vertical that the plate gets leaned, the exact same thing as your term "lean angle" means.
Anyone reading this thread can see you are starting to talk trash here.

The turn response profile of a plate is the ratio of how much "lean angle" (from vertical) it takes to produce a given amount of axle swing angle (away from neutral in the horizontal plane).

I don't need any clues from you to understand "lean angle" I have been posting explanations of this in relation to how and why the DA45 plates work the way they do, and produce the kind of performance they do, since well before you even joined the SLForum.

So before you get all condescending with me perhaps you might want to fire up the search tool and set the clock back a few years to get caught up to speed on what I laid out here well prior to your arrival.

-Armadillo
You say turning response can't be changed, I say it can. Done it over and over again. I have the proof, you have an opinion and a lot of talk about what can and can't be done.

As far as how long I have been here, it is no indication of how much I know in comparison to how much you know. Figuring out issues with things is what I do for a living, every day. I saw a lot of your explanations that are not that old and must say that they lack the polish you put on them now. Besides SG D/A 45 we have been discussing has not been around all that long, about 2 years or so which is what I like to work with. You like to tinker with the other kingpin angle plates, fine, I like these just as much as you like yours.

So where do you want to go with all this? I mean if you aren't testing it and have no real need to as indicated in earlier posts, and stand by you assessments then how can you keep making negative erroneous statements about stuff you have not thoroughly tested? Seems like an impasse to me. However I see a test in the near future. If I am wrong, I'll admit it, if you are wrong I expect an appropriate amount of crow eating as well. Now I need a spare invader plate, anyone got a broken set?

Last edited by fierocious1; May 5th, 2012 at 10:20 AM.
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Old May 5th, 2012, 11:28 AM   #85
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Default its called dillo theory

dillo can gleam an entire 4 year college education from one sitting with a plate and some time to think. dillo has skated a da45 im sure, but he likes to act like he has had 1000's of hours in R&D with just about all skate gear at this point. worse part is, dillo, your REALLY REALLY stuborn, and assume you are smarter than the rest. but this is all theory, just like most of what dillo says, take it as theory, and it works much better.....
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Old May 5th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #86
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dillo can gleam an entire 4 year college education from one sitting with a plate and some time to think. dillo has skated a da45 im sure, but he likes to act like he has had 1000's of hours in R&D with just about all skate gear at this point. worse part is, dillo, your REALLY REALLY stuborn, and assume you are smarter than the rest. but this is all theory, just like most of what dillo says, take it as theory, and it works much better.....
The plates I got from you turned out great. One more session and they will be just right. Polishing off the tuning. Just a little more, LOL.
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Old May 5th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by cojaco61 View Post
it is about who is at the end of the line first.

And what is the most common question asked before and after a race?

What wheels are you using or did use.

Very rarely do people attribute peoples success to the plates they are running.

They attribute other peoples success to their fitness, strength, form and then to wheel selection.

People say, "wow that guy/gal is fit."

"he/she is a strong skater"

"gee, they have nice form/style"

""man those wheels roll"

So just get out there and skate guys.
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Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
I've never heard anyone witness a bad race performance and wonder about the plates the racer was using. lol
As someone who's been racing for years, I agree with both of these statements. As far as plates, it comes down to what the individual person prefers. I prefer the degree angle on the Advantage, which is just slightly different than a Proline. My Quad National Classic 2-man relay partner from last year, who also won Quad Classic Men, wore a 45 degree laser plate last year. He's sponsered by Simmons, and Dave Simmons made him a quad boot (you may have seen pictures of them here or on the net, they're pink quad boots) and he's now gone back to a proline plate. It is what works for the individual. And by the time you get to a competitive race, you'll know what works for you in terms of plates. As cojaco said, when someone wins a race, the more frequently question is "what wheel are you using?"
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Old May 5th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
You say turning response can't be changed, I say it can. Done it over and over again. I have the proof, you have an opinion and a lot of talk about what can and can't be done.
Then start showing us the proof. Describe this proof you claim to have more clearly.

You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.

I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.

So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.

Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.

Cough up some measurement numbers on how far you are shifting the truck location. Do some trigonometry. Take some PICs and post them.
In order to majorly alter a DA45 plate's turn response requires doing things to the suspension that will be clearly visible in a PIC.
This is what it takes to prove your assertions

If these changes can't be seen and can't be measured, then I can't take seriously your assertions that you are dramatically altering DA45 turn response in any big way. Tiny tuning ways - sure, can do; major change ways - sorry, no can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
As far as how long I have been here, it is no indication of how much I know in comparison to how much you know. Figuring out issues with things is what I do for a living, every day. I saw a lot of your explanations that are not that old and must say that they lack the polish you put on them now. Besides SG D/A 45 we have been discussing has not been around all that long, about 2 years or so which is what I like to work with. You like to tinker with the other kingpin angle plates, fine, I like these just as much as you like yours.
I was not suggesting your points were less valid because you haven't been on the Forum as long. I was only pointing out that I have been discussing how suspension geometry dictates the turning response profile of a plate, for much longer and in in more depth than you were giving me credit for.
Your suggesting I don't grasp "lean angle" was absurd, and is more an indication of your own unawareness of all the prior material that I and others members have previously posted on this subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
So where do you want to go with all this? I mean if you aren't testing it and have no real need to as indicated in earlier posts, and stand by you assessments then how can you keep making negative erroneous statements about stuff you have not thoroughly tested? Seems like an impasse to me. However I see a test in the near future. If I am wrong, I'll admit it, if you are wrong I expect an appropriate amount of crow eating as well. Now I need a spare invader plate, anyone got a broken set?
You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.

Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.

Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.

-Armadillo
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Last edited by Armadillo; May 5th, 2012 at 10:19 PM.
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Old May 5th, 2012, 09:03 PM   #89
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I have one more thing to add to this flipping thread:

Chicago plates (circa 1950's) were the best speed plates EVER!!!!!!!!!!

EVER!!!!!!!

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Old May 5th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #90
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I have one more thing to add to this flipping thread:

Chicago plates (circa 1950's) were the best speed plates EVER!!!!!!!!!!

EVER!!!!!!!

Chicago Panther black nylon plates with 30% fiberglass reinforcement and adjustable pivot DA10 truck geometry are the closest thing to a do-it-all plate design that I have seen. Good for speed and good for session too.
Jam skaters here in Chicago pay big $ to get a set of Panthers under them.

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Old May 5th, 2012, 10:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Chicago Panther black nylon plates with 30% fiberglass reinforcement and adjustable pivot DA10 truck geometry are the closest thing to a do-it-all plate design that I have seen. Good for speed and good for session too.
Jam skaters here in Chicago pay big $ to get a set of Panthers under them.

-Armadillo

Yes 'Dillo, those are some nice plates. check out sk8fanatics.com based here in L.A. ...mostly Rhythm skaters. They take those Chicago plates and old steel or clay wheels and refurbish the actual original Chicago plates and mount a dress shoe to them and make a hell of a rhythm/Style skate. Brothas out here be skatin' the hell outta them! Sk8fanatics always has great session parties to promote the business. They build traditional skates as well.
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Old May 6th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #92
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Default Maybe check these out.....coming soon

http://www.boen.it/scheda.asp?idprod=446&idpadrerif=110
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Old May 7th, 2012, 01:45 AM   #93
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Then start showing us the proof. Describe this proof you claim to have more clearly.

You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.

I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.

So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.

Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.

Cough up some measurement numbers on how far you are shifting the truck location. Do some trigonometry. Take some PICs and post them.
In order to majorly alter a DA45 plate's turn response requires doing things to the suspension that will be clearly visible in a PIC.
This is what it takes to prove your assertions

If these changes can't be seen and can't be measured, then I can't take seriously your assertions that you are dramatically altering DA45 turn response in any big way. Tiny tuning ways - sure, can do; major change ways - sorry, no can do.



I was not suggesting your points were less valid because you haven't been on the Forum as long. I was only pointing out that I have been discussing how suspension geometry dictates the turning response profile of a plate, for much longer and in in more depth than you were giving me credit for.
Your suggesting I don't grasp "lean angle" was absurd, and is more an indication of your own unawareness of all the prior material that I and others members have previously posted on this subject.



You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.

Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.

Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.

-Armadillo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Then start showing us the proof. Describe this proof you claim to have more clearly.

You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.

I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.

So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.

Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.

Cough up some measurement numbers on how far you are shifting the truck location. Do some trigonometry. Take some PICs and post them.
In order to majorly alter a DA45 plate's turn response requires doing things to the suspension that will be clearly visible in a PIC.
This is what it takes to prove your assertions

If these changes can't be seen and can't be measured, then I can't take seriously your assertions that you are dramatically altering DA45 turn response in any big way. Tiny tuning ways - sure, can do; major change ways - sorry, no can do.



I was not suggesting your points were less valid because you haven't been on the Forum as long. I was only pointing out that I have been discussing how suspension geometry dictates the turning response profile of a plate, for much longer and in in more depth than you were giving me credit for.
Your suggesting I don't grasp "lean angle" was absurd, and is more an indication of your own unawareness of all the prior material that I and others members have previously posted on this subject.



You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.

Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.

Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.

-Armadillo
You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

You also wrote,
I am stating flatly that it is the GEOMETRY of the shallower action for the DA5-10-15 style plates enables them to work better for speed skaters than the GEOMETRY of the steeper action DA45 style plates, and NEITHER style plate's action GEOMETRY can be significantly altered by mere cushion or pivot adjustments. End quote.

Of course I don't see this in the earlier posts now. How much change is significant? Definition please..... This is another grey area....

Quote:
I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest. End quote

My opinion is that trucks will make a change, But significant is not a measurement either. I can say the same thing you wrote above.

Quote:
I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.
End quote:

Exaggerated results, hmm I know someone on this very forum that gets called down all the time for exaggerated results, I have only been called down for exaggerated results by you.
Photos are photos.. You can post them and everyone can look at them, so can I, and I have. However photos are not raw published data. As for results, significant might mean?? You turn left and the skate don't turn near as much as you thought it would, your wheels hit the boots and you almost go down because the skate is going one way and you another I would call that significant Been there done that...

Quote:
I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.
End Quote:

Glad we are in agreement on something....

Quote:
So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.
End quote

Oh I believe not so long ago I posted photos, and complete descriptions of how to make the changes and how to tune the D/A Invader plate to match what I am doing, you can go back and look for it if you like. I also believe I was arguing with you on this very subject at that time. And asked you to try it. You refused as far as I know. I don't need self congratulation, that is your field. I only argue against things I have tried and found to work a certain way, and when someone is trying to mislead or give false information. If I haven't tried it I haven't got anything to say about it, because I would have no opinion....

Quote:
You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.
End Quote

They are similar, however you more freedom of tuning with the D/A 45. DA5-10-15 plates, have issues when shimming, pushing the pivot pin out of the pivot cup. D/A 45 do not exhibit this issue SIGNIFICANTLY( I know grey area).

Quote:
Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.
end quote

Just how many degrees did you think you needed to make a change? I guess you published your results?
What kind of fixture did you use to place the plates in? Did you attach the angle guage to the plate, how did you measure the Angle? How much weight did you use to load the plate during the test? What hardness cushions were used? How many cushions did you test?What cushions were used for the test? What was the measured compressed height of the cushions during the test? Which SG plate did you use? What size plate did you use? Was it a stock plate(unmodified). Was the table being used leveled? What did you use to calibrate the truck for an indicator? What did you use to promote freedom of action of the trucks during measurement? What devise did you use to check the plates angle(specifically). What did you use to measure the angle of the trucks movement. Describe how you measured it? If you did it I am interested in knowing about it, You have my undivided attention....

Quote:
Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.
End quote

I know that DA5-10-15 plates design restrict what I try to do to them and there is obvious reasons for it. I did not say it was a flaw, just different design that does not lend itself to change as readily as a SG D/A 45. Doc done good.

Quote:
Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.
End quote:

I have posted pics before and the hows and whys. The explanation was very clear. You can go look for it if you want to read it again. I have never seen any set of test results, before and after from you. I know I haven't been here as long as you have but I would have heard about it by now if you did? Did you publish the data here? Post a link please. I would love to read it and scale it or graph it. Did you chart input angle and output turn radius?
You may not have anything further to add however, I am not the only person you get jammed up with about skate gear and sometimes this very subject. I do have different results with the testing I do, some not so good, as you have had in the past. But discount others creativity or mine. I am just a lowly technician, not an authority.

I will offer this however. If someone donates or loans a stock 45 style plate(maybe from a broken set) (old invader, xk something that the D/A 45 kit fits), unmodified, I will go about truly documenting and publishing stock input-output results. Results from mods + -. I do not have a spare plate at this time and don't need one so if someone has an extra from a broken set, I will pay shipping or make me a deal. I have been wanting to get this data but haven't had the time, so I will make time for the test and gathering the tools.

I guess that since you are done with this debate I will also stop muddying the thread.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #94
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Default Yogi Bear

You may go through several plates in the hunt for the right one. I went through a few a couple of years ago to settle on what I use now. Nearly everyone here over a period of time does the same. Good luck in hunting.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 08:57 PM   #95
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Default Snyder wins the race.

Well guys, I broke down and bought the Snyder Advantage. It is now mounted 2 my used 395's I bought(which say 11.5, but fit smaller unfortunately) and I have skated on them about 1 hour.

Let's just say that I almost broke my neck at first. They are super responsive compared to the Riedell plastic plates that were on my R3's. We tightened the action and I am picking things up quickly. I will keep on them and speed skating practice is tomorrow.

I will keep you updated on the progress I make on them and if I like them. I do at this time.
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Old May 11th, 2012, 10:15 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi Bear View Post
Well guys, I broke down and bought the Snyder Advantage. It is now mounted 2 my used 395's I bought(which say 11.5, but fit smaller unfortunately) and I have skated on them about 1 hour.

Let's just say that I almost broke my neck at first. They are super responsive compared to the Riedell plastic plates that were on my R3's. We tightened the action and I am picking things up quickly. I will keep on them and speed skating practice is tomorrow.

I will keep you updated on the progress I make on them and if I like them. I do at this time.
Congrats Yogi
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Old May 11th, 2012, 10:48 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
You also misquote me once again. I DO say turning response CAN be changed, and then I explain exactly why & how the amount of this change is very limited by a plate's design geometry.
I go on to explain exactly why you can only alter the plate's geometry a small amount by stacking slightly different height stuff above the truck on the kingpin, and then resetting the pivot pin extension to match the new truck position.

You also wrote,
I am stating flatly that it is the GEOMETRY of the shallower action for the DA5-10-15 style plates enables them to work better for speed skaters than the GEOMETRY of the steeper action DA45 style plates, and NEITHER style plate's action GEOMETRY can be significantly altered by mere cushion or pivot adjustments. End quote.

Of course I don't see this in the earlier posts now. How much change is significant? Definition please..... This is another grey area....

Quote:
I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest. End quote

My opinion is that trucks will make a change, But significant is not a measurement either. I can say the same thing you wrote above.

Quote:
I too have done this same suspension tweaking "over and over," which is why I know you are exaggerating your results. My cushion tweaking efforts are well documented here on SLF, with dozens of PICs showing lots of non-standard setups taken to the limits. I have fully explored what's possible for altering a plate's turn response by distorting the position of the truck with different height stuff above the truck platform. I have plenty of my own hands on results doing this, not just opinions, and they fully contradict your opinion that you can alter the turn response of a DA45 plate in any truly significant way, by jacking the trucks further away from the plate. Only swapping in different trucks can give the king of big changes you suggest.
End quote:

Exaggerated results, hmm I know someone on this very forum that gets called down all the time for exaggerated results, I have only been called down for exaggerated results by you.
Photos are photos.. You can post them and everyone can look at them, so can I, and I have. However photos are not raw published data. As for results, significant might mean?? You turn left and the skate don't turn near as much as you thought it would, your wheels hit the boots and you almost go down because the skate is going one way and you another I would call that significant Been there done that...

Quote:
I am not talking suspension stiffness either. I am talking the plate's ratio of how much lean gives how much axle turn --turning response.
End Quote:

Glad we are in agreement on something....

Quote:
So far you have offered no counterpoint to the issues I raise that prove what you suggest can be done is an exaggeration. You just ignore them.
You offer nothing to contradict them. You offer only self congratulation for your claims of big results, backed only by subjective impressions of how much you say the skate's performance changed.
End quote

Oh I believe not so long ago I posted photos, and complete descriptions of how to make the changes and how to tune the D/A Invader plate to match what I am doing, you can go back and look for it if you like. I also believe I was arguing with you on this very subject at that time. And asked you to try it. You refused as far as I know. I don't need self congratulation, that is your field. I only argue against things I have tried and found to work a certain way, and when someone is trying to mislead or give false information. If I haven't tried it I haven't got anything to say about it, because I would have no opinion....

Quote:
You make a mistake by assuming that exploring the territory of quad skate suspension tuning demands different approaches for optimizing a DA45 plate than for a DA5-10-15 plate.
The techniques for improving results are pretty much the same regardless of plate style.
End Quote

They are similar, however you more freedom of tuning with the D/A 45. DA5-10-15 plates, have issues when shimming, pushing the pivot pin out of the pivot cup. D/A 45 do not exhibit this issue SIGNIFICANTLY( I know grey area).

Quote:
Meanwhile I have previously measured and documented how much the kind of tweaks you are doing can alter a plates geometry for changing its pivoting angle, and I say it is very few degrees -- way less than five -- at best. This small amount of an angular shift in the trucks pivoting angle will have only a minor impact on the overall turn response profile, because it only alters the plate's geometry a small amount, and suspension geometry is what dictates a plates turn response.
end quote

Just how many degrees did you think you needed to make a change? I guess you published your results?
What kind of fixture did you use to place the plates in? Did you attach the angle guage to the plate, how did you measure the Angle? How much weight did you use to load the plate during the test? What hardness cushions were used? How many cushions did you test?What cushions were used for the test? What was the measured compressed height of the cushions during the test? Which SG plate did you use? What size plate did you use? Was it a stock plate(unmodified). Was the table being used leveled? What did you use to calibrate the truck for an indicator? What did you use to promote freedom of action of the trucks during measurement? What devise did you use to check the plates angle(specifically). What did you use to measure the angle of the trucks movement. Describe how you measured it? If you did it I am interested in knowing about it, You have my undivided attention....

Quote:
Merely because we each prefer to go deeper with tweaking the kinds of plates we happen to like the best, does not mean we don't understand how the process works with other plates. It is the process that matters, and once you understand how to apply it to one kind of plate geometry, you know how it applies to nearly all other types of plate geometries. I am assuming you could improve a DA5-10-15 plate too, from what you already know about optimizing your DA45s.
End quote

I know that DA5-10-15 plates design restrict what I try to do to them and there is obvious reasons for it. I did not say it was a flaw, just different design that does not lend itself to change as readily as a SG D/A 45. Doc done good.

Quote:
Where to go from here is for you to post up some PICs up, to put some measurements up, and to better explain exactly what you claim you are doing to overcome the specific reasons why I say it can't work to the degree of success you claim. Lacking that, I have nothing further to add to this debate.
End quote:

I have posted pics before and the hows and whys. The explanation was very clear. You can go look for it if you want to read it again. I have never seen any set of test results, before and after from you. I know I haven't been here as long as you have but I would have heard about it by now if you did? Did you publish the data here? Post a link please. I would love to read it and scale it or graph it. Did you chart input angle and output turn radius?
You may not have anything further to add however, I am not the only person you get jammed up with about skate gear and sometimes this very subject. I do have different results with the testing I do, some not so good, as you have had in the past. But discount others creativity or mine. I am just a lowly technician, not an authority.

I will offer this however. If someone donates or loans a stock 45 style plate(maybe from a broken set) (old invader, xk something that the D/A 45 kit fits), unmodified, I will go about truly documenting and publishing stock input-output results. Results from mods + -. I do not have a spare plate at this time and don't need one so if someone has an extra from a broken set, I will pay shipping or make me a deal. I have been wanting to get this data but haven't had the time, so I will make time for the test and gathering the tools.

I guess that since you are done with this debate I will also stop muddying the thread.
Not sure why I quoted this. Few will read thru.

Any shallow action DA5-10-15 plate that uses adjustable pivot pin trucks can also be modified for its turning response within the similar LIMITED range of a few degrees that you are getting with your DA45 plates. They are not the only plates that can be adjusted this way.

The possibilities for altering the action in this way are strictly limited by three things:
1) The length of kingpin
2) The adjustable reach range of the pivot pin (out from truck's kingpin hole).
3) Availability of assorted heights & thicknesses of cushions, washers, spacers, and retainers to combine for altering the suspension stack height above the truck.

While you may significantly affect the turn response of a DA45 plate compared to ITSELF or to another DA45 plate, this kind of tweaking will not transform a DA45 to behave anywhere near to how a DA10 plate performs in terms of stability, turn response, and foot force needed.

You can no doubt dampen down the DA45's turning twitchiness somewhat, but it will remain a plate that has a twitchy action geometry.
Painting stripes on a lion does not produce a tiger.

When skate designers want to significantly alter plate performance in some direction, they change the kingpin angle, they change the pivoting angle, they change the truck bend angle, they change the truck shape, and they change the axle location. All these in combination will significantly alter plate performance, and what you are doing will never alter plate performance anywhere near as much as these things do.

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Old May 11th, 2012, 11:25 PM   #98
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Quote:
You can no doubt dampen down the DA45's turning twitchiness somewhat, but it will remain a plate that has a twitchy action geometry.
Painting stripes on a lion does not produce a tiger.
End Quote:

That is the point I have been trying to make to you. It is not dampened down. The action is much slower and I run my cushions soft. No way else to explain it to you. By comparison I would probably be on "blues" at 210 lbs with the standard setup. My new plate was twitchy and has harder cushions but my main test Invaders are not at all twitchy and has softer cushions than my newer plate(White Magnums).
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Old May 12th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #99
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Congrats on the new plate Yogi, that is a wicked nice plate and you'll love it. You'll probably start with the action tight and loosen up as you get comfortable. After you get them comfortable and skate them for a few months, try something else. Loosen them up, and then gradually tighten them a little at a time until you find the sweet spot for you. Something QuadBob showed me, makes your adjustments much better, and gives you a better feel for what the front trucks need versus the rear.
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Old May 12th, 2012, 01:58 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
Quote:
You can no doubt dampen down the DA45's turning twitchiness somewhat, but it will remain a plate that has a twitchy action geometry.
Painting stripes on a lion does not produce a tiger.
End Quote:

That is the point I have been trying to make to you. It is not dampened down. The action is much slower and I run my cushions soft. No way else to explain it to you. By comparison I would probably be on "blues" at 210 lbs with the standard setup. My new plate was twitchy and has harder cushions but my main test Invaders are not at all twitchy and has softer cushions than my newer plate(White Magnums).
Point taken, and if you can get enough range of tuning to satisfy you, within these limits, then that is certainly way better than any plate design that locks everything down for effectively no range of tuning at all.

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