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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old March 30th, 2009, 12:03 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-Ball View Post
Not exactly sure why I got quoted.. I was on the side of QZ.. trying to point out that I didnt think that heartless was TRYING to make a good speed wheel.

As for R/D being spent by companies.... I really hope that your wrong on that one...

why?

Cause the money invested by SOME companies. . doesn’t appear to be assisting them in the development of anything….
((Matter/Answer/Atom/?new name soon? appear to be the exception to that))

Those that are in love with wheels of the 80s and 90s.. do so for a reason. I am not sure when quads came into your life QZ.. but for most of us.. it was the late 70s, 80s and early 90s.. and without the products that were released back then.. current manufacturers would be starting back at square one with R/D. Give the grand dad wheels their props, they have earned it.

There is NOT one current manufactured wheel out there today.. that can touch the Wicked Lips, Shamans, Labeda's or Vangard wheels mass produced 20-30 years ago. And I think that is a sad realization... Those that speak to you about speed wheels.. do so out of the HOPE that since you can build a decent derby wheel.. that maybe you would consider taking that knowledge and bring something worth a **** for the quad speed skaters out there to use.



Im Just Sayin..

THANK YOU 8-Ball AMEN!...could NOT have said it better myself!
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Old March 30th, 2009, 04:13 PM   #82
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Lot of good stuff in this thread...
but one thing I think is getting lost here is that a great speed wheel and a great derby wheel aren't so far apart. Everyone is on here asking for a great speed wheel.... and they are being told that "quad speed is dead so forget about it" because the market isn't there... BUT... the market IS there in my opinion becuase I guarantee the same wheel that would satisfy the people on here would also satisfy a LOT of derby skaters. I think companies are too caught up in the marketing side of making something "for derby" specifically and are missing out by trying soooo hard to target only that market.

So while I agree (sadly!) that there currently isn't a big enough quad speed market left to support a product made specifically for them alone.... that is totally irrelevant, because that same "speed" wheel is going to sell in the derby market as well... and we all know there is no shortage of skaters there!

------------------------------------------------

Now on to the wheels themselves...
I beleive that Atom has matched or exceeded the quality of the wheel compounds of the old school wheels we love from the 80s-90s, which is awesome, because over the last few years there just wasn't anything as good out there at all.

I also suspect the Heartless wheels and Quadzilla's prototypes on here will be high quality compounds like that as well...
which leaves just a few other variables that a manufacturer can play around with in order to make a BETTER wheel than what Atom has already made (not just more comparable wheels)... mainly they can change:

- Hub design/material
- Wheel width/lip design

Without elaborating too much on my opinions about those items.... I will just say that, without doing ANYTHING else different, putting those existing compounds onto a quality aluminum hub would improve them. There is no huge R&D needed here, all anyone needs to do is grab a Labeda Interceptor or a Wicked Lip hub and COPY it... and have it manufactured by a quality company who will make them with the correct tolerances, etc... the research is already done, someone just needs to duplicate the quality of those old hubs.

I'm impressed with the Atom hubs, and they are the first plastic hubbed wheels I have been willing to use in about 20 years... but I still feel strongly that the wheels would be better on aluminum. And, the only way I'll ever change that opinion is if I could test them and compare and really felt at that point that the plastic hubs were just as good. I just wish some company would MAKE them!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old March 30th, 2009, 07:16 PM   #83
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8-ball,

i quoted you and responed to another post at the same time, nothing personal, wasnt bagging on you.

I have been on quads my entire life, along with inlines(1990), and i still skate on both. I started skating at 6 under the wing of the late great Lanny Werner (aunt of Tom Peterson), I also skated with Tom, his sister, and all the rest of the NW greats. I was around when Tom "Mr. Hyper" Peterson ( one of the catylists for the quad speed explosion of the 80's and 90's) was skating and working for Kryptonics. I was also around SoCal when he came up with HYPER, had friends that worked for him, skated the early prototypes, etc. I know all about the wheels of the past. What a lot of skaters dont know it that all of the Shamans, Wicked lips, Cannibals, Witch doctors, were all Hyper "brands". Same chemistry, same formula, same technology. Different color, modified hub, different branding(the same way General Motors has 10+ auto brands).

I understand the feeling and the love affair with what was, the truth just is quad skating in the 70's was huge with disco, then rollerskating became synonmous with it, and when disco died, so did a lot of rollerskating. Mainstream america lumped all of us skaters together with the disco thing and we (skaters) became a 'fad' as well. Tom revived it alot by making a new name for rollerskaing as a sport and appearing in Sport Illustrated ( yes, i have the issue). The speed movement was huge in the US and around the world, so all the companies had an incentive to make the best products as possible to capitalize on the 'boom'. At that time world and national records were being made and broken due to the wheels being made. Another reason for the great speed wheels that were introduced was the USAC (now USARS) "Wheel Certification". Tom and others had access to unobtainable urethanes and technology, and would use this to their advantage in world class competition, making it an "unfair advantage". USAC said all skaters must have the ability to compete at the same level, and have access to the same equipment as any other skaters.Every year, we (manufacturers) must submit any and all new wheels to be used in competition for the year. they have to be the exact wheel, shape, size, color and hardness, in order to ensure that the public has the same chance as anyone else. Which is why all of those great wheels and plates you all love so much were readily availble to the public. If it wasnt for that, you might not have had a bunch of th great wheels that came out back then.

Quad speedskating is nowhere near what it was, case and point...Indoor Nationals about 9 days (6am-10pm) all inline, quad speed ALL divisions, 1 day 6am and over by 2pm, you dont even have to qualify. You can walk in off the streets, pay for a oneday USARS card and skate. (no heats, all races were finals). I was there and saw it. Its almost a joke even say you're gonna skate quad nat's. People are doing it just so they can say "im a national champion". If all of the national and world class inline atheletes suddenly switches to quads, the entire wheels market would turn upside down, and you would probably see the most amazing wheels ever created. Im all for keeping the hope and the dream alive, but this is an industry and big biz, so most companies are focusing on what makes the most sense, and cents. We are fortunate for the wheels we have here in the US, because if you could see the junk they skate on in the UK, France, Germany, India, Malaysia (yes, been there, and done that), and the other places, you would be thanking your lucky stars. Usually companies or brands are criticized for the products they have made, not for things they havent made. Just a thought. I fully understand all of the frustration, but it just is what it is at the moment.
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Old March 30th, 2009, 07:40 PM   #84
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Quote:
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quad speed ALL divisions, ....... You can walk in off the streets, pay for a oneday USARS card and skate. .
You can not compete in a Regional or National event on a One Day.
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Old March 30th, 2009, 08:05 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Quadzilla View Post
What a lot of skaters dont know it that all of the Shamans, Wicked lips, Cannibals, Witch doctors, were all Hyper "brands". Same chemistry, same formula, same technology. Different color, modified hub, different branding(the same way General Motors has 10+ auto brands).

.
I dont think this is accurate.

There is no way.. that what I see on a Wicked Lip.. is the same crap I am seeing on a wSiHtIcTh Drs..... not a chance.

your talking 10-15 years difference in MFG.. and a different mfging location.. I cannot beleive that your telling me that is the same compound... I just will not accept that.

Please.. somoene more KNOWLEDGEABLE please step in and clue me in... PLEASE!
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Old March 30th, 2009, 09:19 PM   #86
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I dont think this is accurate.

There is no way.. that what I see on a Wicked Lip.. is the same crap I am seeing on a wSiHtIcTh Drs..... not a chance.

your talking 10-15 years difference in MFG.. and a different mfging location.. I cannot beleive that your telling me that is the same compound... I just will not accept that.

Please.. somoene more KNOWLEDGEABLE please step in and clue me in... PLEASE!
Shaman/Cannibal/witch doctor were the same compound..
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Old March 30th, 2009, 09:19 PM   #87
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Sorry 8-ball and others, but there is no easter bunny or santa claus.

If any of you remember the huge inline craze, there was speed, aggressive, hockey, there were these barands

Hyper
Senate wheels
Medium wheels
Square wheels
Factory wheels
Ultimate frames
Power Trac
Kuzak
Red Star
Pleasure Tools
Mindgame
BSB (Boss Speed Bearings)
V-Burn Mfg
Global Skate Mag

and some other that escape me at the moment, but these and other were all under the Bravo Corp. (Hyper) umbrella.

Didnt mean to bust your bubbles.
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Old March 30th, 2009, 09:26 PM   #88
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oh yeah...forgot to mention.

Hyper bought out Kryptonics years ago, and just recently sold the licensing rights to Sure-grip, along with the Hyper quad name and models.
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Old March 30th, 2009, 10:24 PM   #89
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oh yeah...forgot to mention.

Hyper bought out Kryptonics years ago, and just recently sold the licensing rights to Sure-grip, along with the Hyper quad name and models.
we know
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Old March 30th, 2009, 10:53 PM   #90
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But also, some of the companies that are in that list STARTED separately.

Ultimate wheels, and Wicked, to name a couple... those compounds were developed by those companies... they were LATER bought by Hyper, but those products (Wicked Lips, Ultimate Weapons, etc) didn't start with Hyper and I doubt the compounds were the same because of that. Although, many of the same people worked on the high end wheels back then.... so there could definitely be some crossover between them and some major similarities.

The way I look at it is that basically Hyper/Bravo just bought out all their competition... but those products were designed before that happened.
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Old March 30th, 2009, 11:29 PM   #91
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Actually these comapnies and brands were created by Hyper. All of the key people in setting up these companies were all employees of Hyper, given budgets, phones,accounts, reps, and the whole nine. They were purposely started, in different places, locations, to give the percerption of being different. You have to look at it from a marketing and promo background. Doug Glass, Allan Nelick,Chris Miller, etc, started these companies, but worked for the Bravo Corp. Hyper didnt buy companies back then, they made them. Once the bottom fell out of the industry, they all went inhouse. After a while, the "companies" were just someone in a cubicle at the the Bravo offices in HB/Costa Mesa. Like i said before, i knew all of the people running the brands, sat in meetings with them, did all of the trade shows, etc. Sad but true. If it wasnt a Hyper brand, they were having Hyper or Labeda pour the wheels for them, with different artwork. Cali has always had the best urethanes. about 75 percent of the wheels for quads, inline, skateboard, etc, are poured in SoCal.
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Old March 30th, 2009, 11:30 PM   #92
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Mo, this is definitely a +1

Sorry 8-ball and others, but there is no easter bunny or santa claus.

lmfao

Nice seeing you at the Rose/Rat bout. Too bad Rat lost. that was lame but it makes the NW derby scene very intresting. See you april 25th.

Plus those boots in person were absolutely amazing!
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Old March 31st, 2009, 12:08 AM   #93
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Regardless of the discussions, I just wanna skate and make a good wheel. If you dont like my wheels, dont buy them, there are others. The people who have skated the wheels I have help to create like them and thats good enough for me. Like i said before, you cant please everyone, and if making a good wheel is so easy and simple as some of the peolple here seem to think, then everyone would be doing it. I hope you find what you all are looking for. I skate a solid 6 days a week sometime 7 and twice on some days, i get on my skates and i roll, and its more about the skating for me not so much the equipment and what i could get that could be better. I skate hard, indoor, derby, jam, shuffle,session, hockey,outdoor, skatepark,etc, so im not just doing laps at a session 1-2 days a week. Ive skated on seized bearings, chunked wheels, flat spots, bent axles, and destroyed boots, because its about the skating and nothing else. Yes, i enjoy having the really good products, but im satisfied with what i have. As long as i can roll, im good. If the industry goes to crap tomorrow, Im still gonna roll. crappy wheels, crappy bearings and crappy boots, Im gonna roll regardless, cuz thats what its about for me.
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Old March 31st, 2009, 02:07 AM   #94
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Regardless of the discussions, I just wanna skate and make a good wheel. If you dont like my wheels, dont buy them, there are others. The people who have skated the wheels I have help to create like them and thats good enough for me. Like i said before, you cant please everyone, and if making a good wheel is so easy and simple as some of the peolple here seem to think, then everyone would be doing it. I hope you find what you all are looking for. I skate a solid 6 days a week sometime 7 and twice on some days, i get on my skates and i roll, and its more about the skating for me not so much the equipment and what i could get that could be better. I skate hard, indoor, derby, jam, shuffle,session, hockey,outdoor, skatepark,etc, so im not just doing laps at a session 1-2 days a week. Ive skated on seized bearings, chunked wheels, flat spots, bent axles, and destroyed boots, because its about the skating and nothing else. Yes, i enjoy having the really good products, but im satisfied with what i have. As long as i can roll, im good. If the industry goes to crap tomorrow, Im still gonna roll. crappy wheels, crappy bearings and crappy boots, Im gonna roll regardless, cuz thats what its about for me.
The point that seems to be missed is this: whenever the suggestion for a metal hub or better lip is thrown out there, there is no response other than "we know what we are doing" or something similar. Give me a good reason that the suggestions are going unheeded and this thread will change its tone.
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Old March 31st, 2009, 02:15 AM   #95
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I guess I just finish saying this..

I wouldnt touch a narrow wheel to save my life.. and I know plenty'o skater that agree with that.

Well just hold out hope that someone will build a speed wheel with a AL hub.... until then.. vintage wheels will rock the house.. and will continue to do so until proven otherwise.

Until then..... Atom gets all my business...and my referals.. (ok ok. Backspin gets referals too )......
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Old March 31st, 2009, 02:16 AM   #96
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good post Gle8
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Old March 31st, 2009, 05:38 AM   #97
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Regardless of the discussions, I just wanna skate and make a good wheel. If you dont like my wheels, dont buy them, there are others. :

Not that I have a dog in this hunt yet, but from a Retail sales POV, I appreciate your want to run your business and manufacture your products your way.

but..

Hypothetically, if THIS many people are chanting and begging you to make an Aluminum hubbed speed wheel, that's more $ your business can make.

That is of course unless when you left Hyper/Bravo you were forced to sign a specific non-compete preventing you from making Aluminum Hubbed or Speed wheels, and another agreement also forces you to a privacy clause.

Just my thoughts.

YMMV
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Old March 31st, 2009, 07:53 AM   #98
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Ive given you all the facts to back up my claims ( regarding th lack of quad speed participation in the industry, and marketing and branding of the same wheel), but I guess noone is really understanding me or getting my piont, but thats ok. There are a bunch of aluminum hub wheels Suregrip, Vanilla, Hyper, Radar,Anabolix, all different, different hubs, different compounds, different shapes and lips. Are you telling me out of all these wheels, nothing is good? Thats a lot of choices to choose from, yet noone is content. Which is kinda my original point. Companies do a bunch of market research before just throwing stuff out to the consumer. Theyve made their contributions to the industry in the form of aluminum hubbed wheels. They wont keep making them if they dont sell, catch my drift? All of these companies are still making the wheels you all say are no good. Ive looked all over this forum to see the different members, and "all of us skaters clammering for a good alum speed wheel" is not really that many. its almost all the same 20 people giving their opinions and thoughts. Even if there were 500 quad speed skaters on here with cash in hand to buy a hot new wheel, that still doesnt cover the minimum quantities for a run of wheels, not including the cost of tooling, molds, r&d, formulations, re-tooling, etc. Take Labeda for instance, the made some of the best wheels around, ever wonder why they stopped??? INLINE! No aluminum, inline wheels wear out faster ( sell more), cheaper and easier to make. They also made arguably the best, most indestructable, speed plates known to mankind, the Pro-Line. They stopped, nuff said. They (companies) all hear the complaints, concerns and requests, but theyre happy with what theyve put out, sorry. With the advance of plastics, nylons and urethanes, the need for aluminum is minimal. You can engineer these things to be as hard, rigid, and stiff as aluminum, without all of the bonding and chunking issues. the Stealth Bomber and F-117 are made out of carbon fiber. Body armor, kevlar and ceramics. See where im going with this?? I hope someone makes something that makes you all happy, but if and when that happens, I got a big white rock that orbits the earth that i'll sell ya for real cheap. Have fun with the quest.
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Old March 31st, 2009, 10:03 AM   #99
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Ive looked all over this forum to see the different members, and "all of us skaters clammering for a good alum speed wheel" is not really that many. its almost all the same 20 people giving their opinions and thoughts. Even if there were 500 quad speed skaters on here with cash in hand to buy a hot new wheel, that still doesnt cover the minimum quantities for a run of wheels, not including the cost of tooling, molds, r&d, formulations, re-tooling, etc.
+1

SureGrip tried to make a decent speed wheel again and look where it got them. Total internet chaos and mud-slinging when things didn't go right. So they re-made it and when reports began to trickle in that the 2nd attempt wasn't all that bad of a wheel where did that get them? How many here own the latest SureGrip Shaman's?

I'm venturing a guess more Skateloggers own Strokers than the latest SureGrip wheel. Which, should mean, (at least based on the argument that Skatelog is a pseudo-representation of skating community as a whole) that I should be seeing those wheels at my local rinks. Which I'm not. Me and the wife appear to be the only people skating Strokers at not just our home rink, but 2 others that we casually frequent as well.

Heck, just a couple months ago Labeda scrounged up a handful of brand new, old school wheels with aluminum hubs and in less than a month several of the new owners had them up for sale. Some at prices higher than what they paid for them. Not criticizing anyone's reasoning for selling, just pointing out that they changed hands.

So tell me, if I were a wheel manufacturer why would I want to get out of bed and go make 25-50 Skateloggers an aluminum hubbed wheel? My wife says I'm a nice guy, but truth be known I'm not THAT nice
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Old March 31st, 2009, 12:38 PM   #100
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is the same crap I am seeing on a wSiHtIcTh Drs.....
Yes... Witch Doctors are super crappy. Send them to me and I will take care of them for you.
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