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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old March 19th, 2017, 09:43 PM   #41
shesk8
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Default Problem with counterfeits....

I've perused alliexpress as well - it's joke. If you're shopping alliexpress, you're most likely buying counterfeit goods. The better question to ask of ones self "is saving a few bucks worth potential injury and/or loss?" If goods fail you're back to spending more $ to replace, and that's if you are lucky to have not been injured due to product failure.

Not only does the counterfeit market hurt legit industries, counterfeits can fail with use as they are not made to any safety standard (as set by legit manufactures/importers of skate goods). I personally know folks in the cycle industry who police this type of thing in bike industry, and like skating goods, there are tons of issues with counterfeit/knock-off bike frames, handle bars, and components failing, not too mention the safety concerns that arise from counterfeit helmets.


The counterfeit market hurts legit industry by flooding market with cheaply made knock-offs, that reduces sales of legit goods, and hence prices increase accordingly, as manufacturers don't particularly want to lose profits to counterfeiters. Some are working to shut down the flow of counterfeit goods made in their respective namesake, but there again, this effort costs industry lots in legal feels to chase after and shut down those offenders. So, one can easily see the ripple effect and damage on skate industry when folks chose to support sellers of counterfeit goods. And, one simply has to look at the result of impact on unsuspecting buyers to see it's not with the small savings. The skater who purchased knock-off matter g13's spent $150/set, finds they are not up to matter standard (of course they are not), they maybe saved $49 off msrp retail price($199/set 8 g13's 110mm), and is now dumping those fake wheels for a set of "legit" wheels... you do the math!
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Old March 19th, 2017, 11:47 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by shesk8 View Post
I've perused alliexpress as well - it's joke. If you're shopping alliexpress, you're most likely buying counterfeit goods. The better question to ask of ones self "is saving a few bucks worth potential injury and/or loss?" If goods fail you're back to spending more $ to replace, and that's if you are lucky to have not been injured due to product failure.

Not only does the counterfeit market hurt legit industries, counterfeits can fail with use as they are not made to any safety standard (as set by legit manufactures/importers of skate goods). I personally know folks in the cycle industry who police this type of thing in bike industry, and like skating goods, there are tons of issues with counterfeit/knock-off bike frames, handle bars, and components failing, not too mention the safety concerns that arise from counterfeit helmets.


The counterfeit market hurts legit industry by flooding market with cheaply made knock-offs, that reduces sales of legit goods, and hence prices increase accordingly, as manufacturers don't particularly want to lose profits to counterfeiters. Some are working to shut down the flow of counterfeit goods made in their respective namesake, but there again, this effort costs industry lots in legal feels to chase after and shut down those offenders. So, one can easily see the ripple effect and damage on skate industry when folks chose to support sellers of counterfeit goods. And, one simply has to look at the result of impact on unsuspecting buyers to see it's not with the small savings. The skater who purchased knock-off matter g13's spent $150/set, finds they are not up to matter standard (of course they are not), they maybe saved $49 off msrp retail price($199/set 8 g13's 110mm), and is now dumping those fake wheels for a set of "legit" wheels... you do the math!
The problem I have is that some of the stuff is just as legit as stuff from the "real" companies. I say this because some of the stuff comes from the same factories in China that make the real thing, i.e. boots. A boot from one of the big US companies that costs $600 is exactly the same as a boot that you can get from China for $57.... which is what the US company pays for them. From various mistakes by products sent directly to me from China with the invoice still in the box, I have figured out how much many of these things cost. My above example is not an exaggeration. Ultimately, this will be the undoing of the skating industry as we know it now. It appears that at least a couple of companies have figured this out and their prices are drastically different from just a couple years ago. I don't mind paying more for something that is hand made in the US and comes with some reassurance that they will take care of any problems if they should arise. I refuse to pay full over inflated prices for stuff that is poorly made by slave labor.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 06:23 AM   #43
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We had a new kid show up with obvious fakes today. He said his dad paid $219 for the whole setup. It was a "Marcus" boot, Z-Frame knock off (didn't even say Luigino on them, which is probably good, and it was 4x120mm) and some "Marcus" 120mm wheels. The frame didn't tell the length, but we assumed it's about 13.5". The hubs were Atom style hubs, just large, like what they'd have on a 125mm wheel; so the urethane was "short". The milling marks on the "pour" side of the wheels were wide and very pronounced, so the real usable wheel surface was pretty small.

He didn't mention any issues with the boots themselves, but we're pooling together parts to get him on 4x110's instead of the super long wheelbase that he's trying to crossover on (indoors.)

We did talk amongst ourselves that it might be interesting to try the 4x120mm outdoors. Although the worries of the frame strength was mentioned.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 12:02 PM   #44
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We did talk amongst ourselves that it might be interesting to try the 4x120mm outdoors. Although the worries of the frame strength was mentioned.
That would be quite a heavy setup.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 04:39 PM   #45
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Kufman, Yes, you are quite right on this. That is another component of the issue of fakes. Manufactures hire out chinese labor, for a certain production run, with no ability to control or protect their goods design or the quantity of those production runs. That has more to do with international laws, or lack thereof, in the country they chose to do business with to produce skate goods (china is close manufacturing over 90% of all skating goods). There are 24 hrs in a day and those factories just keep on producing, as they have come to realize the profit in producing fake or unauthorized goods, with no regard for copyrights, trademarks, etc, they just dump those same goods to grey/black market retailers. Unless there are strict contractual production conditions imposed by a manufacture of goods, or blocking import of fake goods, this activity in industry will not cease, and yes, ultimately can/will erode the skating goods industry.

Another contributing factor, not yet discussed is the inflationary pricing of goods. As it is today, skate values have NOT increased over time, whereas Bikes and other sport industry goods have increased proportionally with inflation rates. In part it is due to the evident lack of reign-hold manufactures have over their own productions, and positions in the industry.

As example: interestingly, I paid more for a far less quality Rollerblade my first year of inline skating, 1994-ish. Msrp was $350+ back then. In today's $ dollars, a similar skate would cost me $229. The industry has become a race to the bottom, and manufactures are allowing this to happen. We also see it daily with influences from non-legit re-seller of goods (from within the industry) along with increase in fake or knock-off products pouring into the market, etc.

Do we really know where things are made? It's practically impossible for folks to purchase skate goods that are not in part or in whole made in china. The few USA skate companies here that manufacturer skating goods (boots, frames, wheels) do a very nice job with end product craftsmanship and quality, but one pays for this at higher premiums costs, in relative terms of the value of the $ dollar as compared to cheap oversees labor. But, even that said, next time one does buy Made in the USA, (any produced goods for that matter) let's please distinguish between Made in USA or Built in USA... to which, I will challenge folks to request the raw materials sourcing from these USA companies. In the end you may find that Made in USA, is not entirely made in USA, it also may be that some USA manufactures of goods, knowingly or not, purchase raw materials from USA distribution suppliers, which again, may or may not be materials sourced from/within the USA. All I can say to this is, that as a consumer, don't be afraid to ask the questions to make informed decisions.
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Old March 20th, 2017, 06:12 PM   #46
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Ali is popular in Russia. Not all goods from aliexpress are fake, they sell some original electronics of chinese brands (like Meizu smartphones) for the half of retail price. Not sure it will work out with US cell phone operators though + and you need to update software since it will come with chinese software.

But speaking about skating goods can't recommend anything... xept maybe some bearings?

PS it is obvious that all labour-intensive manufacturing drifts to China, Philippines and so on for a reason... the only difference is that "originals" are made under white lords control and "fakes" go without. Usually fakes are of much worse quality, but in some cases they are just the same. Like Limar helmets lol. First Powerslide frames looked very chinese but they improved over time.
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Old March 21st, 2017, 11:39 PM   #47
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Seems legit.


Also, what Kufman said.

I already have a difficult time sourcing gear for my business, or parts/tools for my cars. Knockoff cycling gear is a major thing already.

For some perspective from industry: My dad ran a specialized manufacturing company some years back... and they had to manufacture their gear in the US for military/government contracts - DOE in particular. He told me it was so much cheaper to do so overseas (in China, particularly), they could've used US materials, shipped them, made the stuff, shipped back, paid US labor rates to QC to extremely tight spec, throw out 90% as waste, and still end up paying less.

Zero chance most businesses are going to do that without a contractual obligation to do so... with the current regulatory/economic climate here, anyway. Folks need to vote with their wallet, and be willing to accept fewer (better) things for their money, or the trend will continue.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 12:44 AM   #48
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...Zero chance most businesses are going to do that without a contractual obligation to do so... with the current regulatory/economic climate here, anyway. Folks need to vote with their wallet, and be willing to accept fewer (better) things for their money, or the trend will continue.
Or it's someone that does it almost as a hobby. Such as they have the equipment available (mill) and expertise and they're not doing it as much for the profit as they are for something else that drives them.

From what I understood, that's kind of the way the EagleHawks came to be. The employees at a manufacturing firm were allowed to make their own stuff when the machines weren't otherwise in use (probably had to supply their own bits along with material.) A coach was annoyed at the frames that were on the market. They got together and designed a frame. From what I was told at the time ('93 ish), if those frames had been spec'd out by that manufacturing firm they would have cost about $1500. Each.

Now, to put that in to perspective, those frames were way overly accurately milled. Frames don't need to be made to the spec those were, but it didn't cost any different for the guys that worked there, so why not go for the best?
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 01:04 AM   #49
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Or it's someone that does it almost as a hobby. Such as they have the equipment available (mill) and expertise and they're not doing it as much for the profit as they are for something else that drives them.
Absolutely agree.

I'm a huge fan of cottage industry, one-off stuff, plus that's how the best of the best usually comes about. One person's vision for the best possible widget.

But that's not MOST stuff, and it isn't MOST people's motivation for producing. Even small elite boot makers and frame builders need to stay in business, unless they're independently wealthy and operating a charity Plus, in the context of skating, there's more than one small guy in our world who made a stupid-good thing only to have it blatantly ripped by a big company for retail in legit channels. I know a couple of those guys well, and that's a really crappy deal... even if you were partly in it for reasons other than profit.

And when that happens, it takes research, and knowledge of the situation, plus a conviction to buy the original at greater cost and less convenience. Many, if not most buyers don't have one or both of those things for most products. Even something as obvious as that Vaypor... isn't too obvious to someone who doesn't skate and happen to own a legit one in that color scheme. Easy bait for people checking out the sport, buying as gifts, etc.

Not to mention the whole can of worms regarding some knockoffs actually BEING the legit product in whole or in part, per Kufman's post. Whole thing is a hot mess.
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 05:31 PM   #50
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Seems legit.
Dang, check out that deck height!!!
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Old March 22nd, 2017, 08:35 PM   #51
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CRAP!!! completely missed the height between wheels 2,3 and top of boot archway! When I was thinking "vaypor" I looked at cuff-top.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 01:47 AM   #52
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We are domesticated in Chinese products.
Discard made in china among the daily necessities you are using.
What is in daily life?
According to the experimental results, it is impossible for Americans to live their lives when discarding made in china products.
The iPhone is also made in China.
However, it is sold in made in usa.

This is an interaction between consumers seeking cheap products and merchants who desire maximized income.
It is a result made by consumers.

MPC wheel Is the made in China? Is it made in usa?
The final process works in the usa and is sold in the US.



Bont Is the product from Australia? Is it made in China?
Do you believe that the Bont factory is in Australia?
Please read below.

https://translate.google.com/transla...wer&edit-text=




Urethane is important for the wheel, and it is produced in the majority of the made in usa.
The design and manufacture of the hub are also very important.
Most of the wheels other than MPC, Matter, and TLTF can be seen made in China.

Most of the frames are made in China.
The picture below is the frame produced in China.
Is it amazing?
Frames less than about usd250$ are estimated to be made in china.
(not all. majority.)
The reason is in the profit rate of the merchant.
It will be the distribution cost.




bearing?
Are you satisfied with made in China?
Please refer to the bearing performance document.
If possible, please use European products.
If you want to experience the new world, try using very good bearings.



Both with made in China are not bad products.
There are also many good manufacturers.
Quality control of the sales maker is important.
It is important whether there is a will of technology development.
There is no intention of technology development, and if it is for money, it is not discriminated whether it is made in China or made in usa.
Merchants are given priority to money.
If it is judged that you do not earn money, even if you have a good product, it is the merchant that you are not selling.
The reality is that consumers are accustomed to cheap products.
Most consumers will that they prefer cheap products, not quality or function.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 12:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post

bearing?
Are you satisfied with made in China?
Please refer to the bearing performance document.
If possible, please use European products.
If you want to experience the new world, try using very good bearings.



Both with made in China are not bad products.
There are also many good manufacturers.
Quality control of the sales maker is important.
It is important whether there is a will of technology development.
There is no intention of technology development, and if it is for money, it is not discriminated whether it is made in China or made in usa.
Merchants are given priority to money.
If it is judged that you do not earn money, even if you have a good product, it is the merchant that you are not selling.
The reality is that consumers are accustomed to cheap products.
Most consumers will that they prefer cheap products, not quality or function.
Nowadays the ceramic balls of most of 608Bearings are made in china, if not all of them.
Anyway, maybe it is offtopic but how did you measure the efficiency of the bearings in your chart???.
I tried many expensive bearing models and I can not believe that 5balls Powerslide (F A G) Cronitec has better eficiency than Takino ceramic microbearings.
I tried both and 5 balls hybrid cronitecs have too much clearance between balls and rings. A tight clearance is faster when the bearing is under load and my experience was not so good with them. And takino lightweight ceramic micro bearings are fast like hell.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 06:18 PM   #54
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NDS, it isn't the fact that the products are made in China (which most are) but the problem comes in when products are copied poorly by other Chinese companies and those products are not safe. Yes, Bont stuff is made in China and I know from experience that they have thrown away product that wasn't made correctly. Alex makes many trips to their factory to sort out this sort of problem. This isn't the case for knockoffs that have no real engineering behind them and merely "look" like a real product.
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Old March 23rd, 2017, 10:43 PM   #55
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This gives all new meaning to "High Rollers"....
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Old March 24th, 2017, 09:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rojo View Post
Nowadays the ceramic balls of most of 608Bearings are made in china, if not all of them.
Anyway, maybe it is offtopic but how did you measure the efficiency of the bearings in your chart???.
I tried many expensive bearing models and I can not believe that 5balls Powerslide (F A G) Cronitec has better eficiency than Takino ceramic microbearings.
I tried both and 5 balls hybrid cronitecs have too much clearance between balls and rings. A tight clearance is faster when the bearing is under load and my experience was not so good with them. And takino lightweight ceramic micro bearings are fast like hell.

Bearings have important points of mechanical design.
If that part is satisfied, it will be differentiated from other bearings.

It is from clearance that feels fast.
Clearance will change according to the attitude of each user.
In the case of 688 bearings, the ball is small, so you can maintain a slippery function even if the clearance is large.
However, the acceleration capacity drops compared to 608.

Bearings will never demonstrate absolute performance at constant speed.
Acceleration(interval) performance is differentiated.
There is no big difference between expensive products and cheap products in constant speed running.
When trying to raise the speed(interval), bearings that can increase the acceleration are good products.

For example, do expensive cars and cheap cars make a big difference in speed on Traffic jam roads?
Acceleration is a function that is exerted when the user attempts to increase the speed physically.

5balls Powerslide(F A G) is a product that is short of clearance management.
Also, 5balls is inappropriate because it does not withstand proper load.
If only looking at bearing conditions, good bearings fit.

You have not experienced a better bearing, so I may not know about good bearings.
Please try experiencing.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 09:04 AM   #57
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NDS, it isn't the fact that the products are made in China (which most are) but the problem comes in when products are copied poorly by other Chinese companies and those products are not safe. Yes, Bont stuff is made in China and I know from experience that they have thrown away product that wasn't made correctly. Alex makes many trips to their factory to sort out this sort of problem. This isn't the case for knockoffs that have no real engineering behind them and merely "look" like a real product.

Yes. Some products, copied may be unsafe.
Difficult to assume that all copied products are like that.

Also, some products may not have the difference between copied and those sold as genuine.
An example can be presented.
However, we are unable to notify you because there are complaints from manufacturers.

Also mentioned my writing.
If there is a will of quality control and development, made in china or made in usa Whatever production it is, there are good products.

Do not be fooled by producers and sellers who use low quality products for making money.
I also checked some shop suppliers in the US and European countries.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 09:52 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
Bearings have important points of mechanical design.
If that part is satisfied, it will be differentiated from other bearings.

It is from clearance that feels fast.
Clearance will change according to the attitude of each user.
In the case of 688 bearings, the ball is small, so you can maintain a slippery function even if the clearance is large.
However, the acceleration capacity drops compared to 608.

Bearings will never demonstrate absolute performance at constant speed.
Acceleration(interval) performance is differentiated.
There is no big difference between expensive products and cheap products in constant speed running.
When trying to raise the speed(interval), bearings that can increase the acceleration are good products.

For example, do expensive cars and cheap cars make a big difference in speed on Traffic jam roads?
Acceleration is a function that is exerted when the user attempts to increase the speed physically.

5balls Powerslide(F A G) is a product that is short of clearance management.
Also, 5balls is inappropriate because it does not withstand proper load.
If only looking at bearing conditions, good bearings fit.

You have not experienced a better bearing, so I may not know about good bearings.
Please try experiencing.
Maybe another person asking might help:

how did you measure the efficiency of the bearings in your chart?
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Old March 25th, 2017, 04:28 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matguy View Post
Maybe another person asking might help:

how did you measure the efficiency of the bearings in your chart?

Efficiency is not absolute.
It is relative evaluation.
It analyzes the difference in efficiency based on the best design product.
If the best products are released in some companies, the graph may be different.
Please understand the advantages.

Hi. matguy.
We are unable to notify you of the condition that you actually need.
In that case you will know all the manufacturing techniques of the bearings.

The director of our collaboration company J&T said.
"Many people know that MPC urethane is very good.
Did the MPC release urethane production know-how?
Did Coca-Cola clarify the compounding conditions?
Bearing efficiency condition is also know-how."

In order to confirm this content, we conducted a comparison test with the above mentioned bearings to elite athletes. (Including national representatives)
The majority of the elite selected Ares or styx and some of the female players selected Nymph.
We are convinced about the results.

Based on the results of the test we will extraction the data.
In the case of the United States, please contact kistler(? I do not know the spelling of English.).
Kistler is using indoor products.

We are publicly available data is clearance. (Provided by J&T.)
This is a very important document for teaching users the choice of products.

Below is the bearing type distinguish chart.



Below is the buyer distribution chart.



Attach some photos to understand the angle of the edge.

Below is the lean angle difference between outdoor track and indoor wheel.
Not all are the same.
The posture may vary depending on the user.

Left : Styx or Ares(Red or Flame). Right : Eris(Gray or violet).



Below is the angle from road.
It depends on each user.
The elite has more inclination than the picture.

Sky-Blue and Blue and Green.
There is no absolute one.
It differs slightly according to user's preference.
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Old March 27th, 2017, 10:23 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
Efficiency is not absolute.
Putting a bearing at your 100% efficiency "four-dimensional wall that can not be crossed" looks like an absolute statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
It is relative evaluation.
Then your chart should label that way, otherwise a 100% efficient bearing would have zero measurable resistance. Now it's being said that the "New Design System" bearing that is labeled at 100% efficiency is a relative measurement? (Which I hope it is anyway, because no mechanical bearing has 100% efficiency, which is what puts that whole graph in to question to begin with.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
It analyzes the difference in efficiency based on the best design product.
And how was that measured in this test? I think that's the question being asked here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
If the best products are released in some companies, the graph may be different.
That's the point some of us are trying to not only make, but get information on. Without information on the testing methods this is not information, it's propaganda.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
Please understand the advantages.

Hi. matguy.
We are unable to notify you of the condition that you actually need.
In that case you will know all the manufacturing techniques of the bearings.

The director of our collaboration company J&T said.
"Many people know that MPC urethane is very good.
Did the MPC release urethane production know-how?
Did Coca-Cola clarify the compounding conditions?
Bearing efficiency condition is also know-how."
No one asked you how the bearings are made, we asked you how they were tested. If MPC or Coca-Cola presents comparative information between their product and competition, yes, they can be expected to explain the testing procedure. If used as advertisement, they could be required to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDSconcept View Post
In order to confirm this content, we conducted a comparison test with the above mentioned bearings to elite athletes. (Including national representatives)
The majority of the elite selected Ares or styx and some of the female players selected Nymph.
We are convinced about the results.

Based on the results of the test we will extraction the data.
In the case of the United States, please contact kistler(? I do not know the spelling of English.).
Kistler is using indoor products.

We are publicly available data is clearance. (Provided by J&T.)
This is a very important document for teaching users the choice of products.

Below is the bearing type distinguish chart.



Below is the buyer distribution chart.



Attach some photos to understand the angle of the edge.

Below is the lean angle difference between outdoor track and indoor wheel.
Not all are the same.
The posture may vary depending on the user.

Left : Styx or Ares(Red or Flame). Right : Eris(Gray or violet).



Below is the angle from road.
It depends on each user.
The elite has more inclination than the picture.

Sky-Blue and Blue and Green.
There is no absolute one.
It differs slightly according to user's preference.
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