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Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

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Old January 4th, 2010, 04:35 AM   #1
Spartan
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Default Mount plates closer to instep?

Doc, one of the girls on my derby team is getting her plates mounted by a guy who is planning to mount her skates differently from how I do it, and I wanted your opinion on it. Her previous skates were DVW mounted Reactors on 965. I think you have an idea of how DVW mounts skates, he (and I) are disciples of the Doc method. She won her class in Nationals Speedskating on that setup. Now this new guy is mounting her skates so that they are closer to the instep of her boots. His reasoning was that the big toe and the toe next to it are stronger than the other toes, so he wanted the plate to be lined up under them for more power. I have never heard of this setup and I wanted your opinion on it.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 11:55 AM   #2
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Default Beginner set up??

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Doc, one of the girls on my derby team is getting her plates mounted by a guy who is planning to mount her skates differently from how I do it, and I wanted your opinion on it. Her previous skates were DVW mounted Reactors on 965. I think you have an idea of how DVW mounts skates, he (and I) are disciples of the Doc method. She won her class in Nationals Speedskating on that setup. Now this new guy is mounting her skates so that they are closer to the instep of her boots. His reasoning was that the big toe and the toe next to it are stronger than the other toes, so he wanted the plate to be lined up under them for more power. I have never heard of this setup and I wanted your opinion on it.
Buy a Pacer, they build 'em that way..Most of the Sunlice built in Lenexa that I have seen are too...

He may be correct in his ergonomic assessment, but that will be of far less benefit than the loss of agility from that alignment... The toes in (toe in heel centered) alignment does just that..... forces your toes in when you sk8.

Now if he is moving the center line close to the instep, this is worse... The plates my be under the "strong toes" but the sk8r will have to work to keep them pointed straight ahead. The natural tendency will be for the ankles to supinate (rotate outward) causing the sk8s to split apart.

Let's put it this way...... If I thought that was the way to go I'd build 'em that way...

My main question is why is this lady messing with success??? I think she will be hating her new sk8s... If she isn't let me know... I'm always interested in something new to try...
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Old January 4th, 2010, 02:14 PM   #3
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Default It occurs to me

That the loss of a natural balance would far outweigh any benefits from using "stronger toes". Especially since the toes aren't there for strength, they're there for balance. It takes very little centering error to make the skates want to turn inward or outward on their own, and the only way to overcome it is with muscle control in the ankles.

I'l be interested also to know how they work for her.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 03:14 PM   #4
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Ummm, the reason is...complicated. It involves her girlfriend thinking that this skate builder she "discovered" in Ohio is the cats meow, and so she says and does everything this guy says. Most of it I agree with, but not all. I would like the girls to talk to me BEFORE he does anything, but sometimes they don't. He had mounted her skates like this a couple months ago but decided she hated the 1065 boot, so she sent them back. I asked her how she liked the set-up and she said it was "weird, but I [she] didn't get a chance to get used to them". I told her I would be very interested to hear what she thought of them when she gets them back.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 04:55 PM   #5
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I asked her how she liked the set-up and she said it was "weird, but I [she] didn't get a chance to get used to them".
In the words of the guy who fitted me for running shoes, "weird is never good. take those off."
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Old January 4th, 2010, 07:57 PM   #6
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Question Consider this...

A lot of folks told me my sk8s felt weird .... to begin with... Although the theory looks like so much cow manure ...ya never know....

I am suspicious that the plate alignment caused issues with the way the boots worked as well...
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Old January 4th, 2010, 08:25 PM   #7
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yeah, I want to ask her what she didn't like about the boot. My understanding is that the 1065 is basically a 965 with a more traditional ankle cut. She's going to a 695 now. i suspect it was the plates as well. Probably put a lot of pressure on the outside of her foot and did weird things to her arches. I would guess.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 09:54 PM   #8
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A lot of folks told me my sk8s felt weird .... to begin with... Although the theory looks like so much cow manure ...ya never know....

I am suspicious that the plate alignment caused issues with the way the boots worked as well...
Yeah, I should have qualified it. Sometimes weird is bad. Sometimes it's just something to get used to.

I can't imagine that mounting the plates that far inside would end up being a great idea. It does sound more like how people say to initially mount inline boots, though, as far as the centerline being the line from the first interspace (between the toes) to the achilles... Okay, I'll stop. Not the place to chat about such things.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 11:06 PM   #9
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Default Mounting...

I have only ever seen "in step" or offset mounting on the left boot. It helps those big skateboard speed plates turn left. The right boot has always been mounted pretty neutral or center. The theory I have always been taught is that the long wheel base is best for speed and power, but to get them to turn you have to get creative. The best speed skates Ive ever skated were mounted that way. Check out the pictures in the old skate magazines and you will see examples. I saw a picture of one of the Muse brothers posted here on skatelog with this example just a couple of weeks ago.
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Old January 4th, 2010, 11:16 PM   #10
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This is, at least, a short plate set-up. Unless he talked her out of that, and I really dont' think he did or could. I believe she is on a size 5 (150mm) Reactor for her size 8 boot. Also, she is our star jammer, the speedskating is a hobby for her.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 12:56 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
A lot of folks told me my sk8s felt weird .... to begin with...
I will agree with that 100%. The first time on a Doc mount felt a bit odd. However, almost every pair of skates I owned up to that point were mounted with the Snyder center tool. And one set mounted to the outside of the Snyder tool mark. However, I will continue to use the Doc method from here on out. It works. If someone can convince me otherwise, I will try something different, but until then, the Doc method remains to be my weapon of choice.



Quote:
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Ummm, the reason is...complicated. It involves her girlfriend thinking that this skate builder she "discovered" in Ohio is the cats meow, and so she says and does everything this guy says. Most of it I agree with, but not all....
I had a whole post written out, but chose not to submit it because it got long and nasty.... Let me summarize: If it is who I think it is, find another skate guy. The Ohio skate guru has failed to impress me at all!!!!!!

We visited his shop recently. It did not go well. I can say for sure, he lost at least two customers because of his poor attitude and overwhelming lack of ability to listen to a customer. However, the experience makes me appreciate Doc's knowledge all the more. Thanks for everything Fred!!!!!!

Although I am definitely not listed in the Who's Who of the skating world, I do know a few people. I have asked around about the Ohio skate guru, and NOBODY knows who he is. Rumors say he claims to have been in the skate business for 40 years, yet, no art, speed or professional session rat have heard of him other than his recent involvement with derby. Hmmmmmm. Maybe he is from the ice world, maybe I am asking the wrong people. Who knows.....

I will give him some credit, the skates he had on display were well color coordinated and pretty to look at.

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Now this new guy is mounting her skates so that they are closer to the instep of her boots. His reasoning was that the big toe and the toe next to it are stronger than the other toes, so he wanted the plate to be lined up under them for more power. I have never heard of this setup and I wanted your opinion on it.
Like I said above, there was a theory a while back that some builders used for quad speed. They mounted the plates to the outside (away from the instep). The theory was that the skater could really lay the power on the outside edges while pushing in the straights. You could have zero finesse and gain a ton of speed in the straights. The turns were survivable, and once you got used to the set up, the skates could be fast.

However, for derby, moving plates too far to the inside or outside is probably not the best idea. It is a tight track, and most skaters use all their edges, not just inside or outside edges.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:11 AM   #12
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Default Visual example...

This is a picture of Tony Muse. Observe his left skate... It almost looks like it is pointing in the wrong direction. Even if the plate has offset toestops you can see the "offset" of the plate to the inside edge of the boot. This is what I am accustomed to seeing as a true "speed" only set up. Has anyone else observed this from their regional speed people?

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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:53 AM   #13
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Default I tinkered with it

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I have only ever seen "in step" or offset mounting on the left boot. It helps those big skateboard speed plates turn left. The right boot has always been mounted pretty neutral or center.
to try to get my big feet around the corners. I offset the left heel of my Satellites toward the inside just a little to help me corner. That's back when I was too stupid to realize that my problem wasn't the plates, it was my heel rolling over in the boot.

I could sort of see it as a very specific speed-application technique, but you'd have to be able to muscle over the offset when you're trying to just go straight.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:11 AM   #14
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Default These is those

Quote:
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This is, at least, a short plate set-up. Unless he talked her out of that, and I really dont' think he did or could. I believe she is on a size 5 (150mm) Reactor for her size 8 boot. Also, she is our star jammer, the speedskating is a hobby for her.
I'm pretty sure they were size 6 Reactors. Made a nice setup.

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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:39 AM   #15
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They were, but the size 6 was a compromise. She didn't really trust me, so when I said size 5 and the speed coach said size 7, I said "fine, compromise and get a 6". She did, liked it, was happy UNTIL she tried a pair of skates with a shorter plate. Then she wanted that. So now she is on a size 5.

Oh, and it is in fact the guy you are thinking of Kennedy.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:13 PM   #16
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Default Sooner or later

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She did, liked it, was happy UNTIL she tried a pair of skates with a shorter plate. Then she wanted that. So now she is on a size 5.
They all come around, don't they.

Maybe she'll eventually see through this other guy too.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 05:03 PM   #17
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I cannot understand this.. If it aint broke why fix it..
And as well if someone is claiming to be all that more than likely they are not.

Never once that I noticed has Fred made some sort of claim to be a guru.. Im not sure how it happened but I have a feeling The Doc was a name given to him by others so thereforth he earned it.. Im not sure though I would like to hear how and who came up wth Doctor Sk8..
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Old January 5th, 2010, 05:15 PM   #18
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Default Easy enough...

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I cannot understand this.. If it aint broke why fix it..
And as well if someone is claiming to be all that more than likely they are not.

Never once that I noticed has Fred made some sort of claim to be a guru.. Im not sure how it happened but I have a feeling The Doc was a name given to him by others so thereforth he earned it.. Im not sure though I would like to hear how and who came up wth Doctor Sk8..
Ask forum member RS Dave... It's ALL his fault....
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:58 PM   #19
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I don't know why they are doing all this, but I admit that I bugs me to have them going to some guy in another state when I am right here, volunteering my time. I hope the guy craps the bed on this one. If I screwed something up, I would like to know it. They never did listen to me much when it came to equipment though. I don't know why.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #20
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Ask forum member RS Dave... It's ALL his fault....
"Doctor" always sounds too conservative to me... I always envision you with a rack of steaming test tubes, bunson burners flickering, and lightning bolts shooting everywhere.
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