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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates.

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Old October 21st, 2011, 03:56 PM   #21
Armadillo
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'Dillo, when was the last time you t-nut mounted a pair of Bonts? While all the stuff you said is sound and makes sense, it is really not necessary.
Who wants to wait 12 hours just to tighten the t-nuts?
You can use a faster setting glue, but it will lack the Shoe Goo urethane adhesives's ability to hold max adhesion while still maintaining a good bit of flex.

Read the tech info at the better sites that sell carbon fiber sheet material. They all advise that sharp corner fasteners be BONDED to the sheet surface so that they do not slide around and steadily chew their way into the carbon fibers. This also prevents the concentration of stress onto too small of an area of the carbon surface. I don't know how well the Bont's sole cover material will function over time as the interfacing layer between the T-nut flange and the carbon surface, but I suspect that, in this role, it will gradually break down. I have only mounted plates on one QRC and one other Bont carbon boot, but the QRC was a 100% glue mount so no T-Nuts needed.

You can mount yours however you prefer, but I try to follow the advice of those engineers who clearly know a lot more than I do on this subject matter.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:31 PM   #22
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 09:18 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
You can mount yours however you prefer, but I try to follow the advice of those engineers who clearly know a lot more than I do on this subject matter.
Bont QRC boots come with mounting bolts not a tube of adhesive and don't have a wooden core to compress...........................

I doubt those engineers you are quoting have studied the interface between the plate and a boot ................................. I would however bet lefty that Bont has done some testing over the past 30 years to ensure that the mountng is method is up to the task
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 10:33 PM   #24
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Bont QRC boots come with mounting bolts not a tube of adhesive and don't have a wooden core to compress...........................

I doubt those engineers you are quoting have studied the interface between the plate and a boot ................................. I would however bet lefty that Bont has done some testing over the past 30 years to ensure that the mountng is method is up to the task
When people are buying pronged T-nuts, then snapping the prongs off, and then just slapping them into holes drilled through a carbon fiber soled boot, with nothing solid protecting the sharp prong stubs from chewing away at the carbon, the stage is set for future problems. The Bont mount H/W may well be better than this scenario, but that is what I was addressing with my suggestion to add some urethane adhesive between the T-nut flange and the carbon sole before inserting the T-nuts.

My custom builds use carbon sheet material that is well protected from T-nut by the sole's thickness, so when I glue the T-nuts in, it is only to lock them into the final optimum location and prevent future shifting and reduce any possibllity of T-nuts gradually squeezing through the sole material.

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Old October 23rd, 2011, 08:26 AM   #25
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You haven't looked inside a quad racer (under the insole) have you.

If you had you know there is no danger of the "sharp prong stubs from chewing away at the carbon" and using glue under the head of the T nut would make a mess if the neoprane (or what ever it is) covering the carbon.

When you talk about broken home made kingpins or how to cut a cushion you speak with some authority, but you are just speaking thru your ar$e now.
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Old October 30th, 2011, 10:07 PM   #26
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You haven't looked inside a quad racer (under the insole) have you.

If you had you know there is no danger of the "sharp prong stubs from chewing away at the carbon" and using glue under the head of the T nut would make a mess if the neoprane (or what ever it is) covering the carbon.

When you talk about broken home made kingpins or how to cut a cushion you speak with some authority, but you are just speaking thru your ar$e now.
It is not my speaking that is the point here. It is what the prevailing practice is for attaching fasteners through holes in carbon fiber sheet.
If you think what I posted IS NOT the recommended approach for this, then "you are just speaking thru your ar$e now"

You're suggestion that the squishy neoprene layer is a suitable substitute for a firmer bonding adhesive is NOT something I have seen on any website offering tech info on fastener assembly of carbon fiber sheets. I doubt if an FAA inspector examining an aircraft built with carbon fiber would be very impressed with neoprene foam as the interface layer between the fastener and the carbon sheet. Not to say it couldn't work out OK, but it is not one of the suggested practice options.

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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:08 PM   #27
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Question Have you guys figured this out yet??

I have been using pronged tee nuts on Bonts since day 1.... I have probably built close to 100 pair (or more maybe... I don't count any more. )

Let's get some things straight.

1) I do not use the same tee nuts for Bonts that i do for regular shoes or sk8 boots. As far as the Bonts go, I flatten the prongs and don't cut them off. (That's what I get straight.)
2) I have no need for adhesives to hold the nuts in place.. I have zero trouble getting them tight or and zero trouble having them come loose. Blue Vibratite works fine.
3) No real need for stainless tee nuts, I have yet to see any rust out.. Dry your sk8s folks, it works wonders..
4) I have been tee nut mounting since before Y2K for myself and for customers since Y2K. Leather sk8 boots, combat boots, soccer cleats and then Bonts.
5) A bigger issue is the barrel of the tee nut pulling all the way through the sole and bottoming on the plate. I counter bore the plates to make clearance. Not such a great thing to do opening the slots on a Pro Line, but I have done it.
6) Just finished 2 pair of Bont Avengers yesterday.. (Did 2 Isis Avengers today.) I will be building 6 more Bonts in the next couple of weeks including 2 with Infinity plates..
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:53 PM   #28
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I have been using pronged tee nuts on Bonts since day 1.... I have probably built close to 100 pair (or more maybe... I don't count any more. )

Let's get some things straight.

1) I do not use the same tee nuts for Bonts that i do for regular shoes or sk8 boots. As far as the Bonts go, I flatten the prongs and don't cut them off. (That's what I get straight.)
2) I have no need for adhesives to hold the nuts in place.. I have zero trouble getting them tight or and zero trouble having them come loose. Blue Vibratite works fine.
3) No real need for stainless tee nuts, I have yet to see any rust out.. Dry your sk8s folks, it works wonders..
4) I have been tee nut mounting since before Y2K for myself and for customers since Y2K. Leather sk8 boots, combat boots, soccer cleats and then Bonts.
5) A bigger issue is the barrel of the tee nut pulling all the way through the sole and bottoming on the plate. I counter bore the plates to make clearance. Not such a great thing to do opening the slots on a Pro Line, but I have done it.
6) Just finished 2 pair of Bont Avengers yesterday.. (Did 2 Isis Avengers today.) I will be building 6 more Bonts in the next couple of weeks including 2 with Infinity plates..
So, non-stainless t-nut's, no prongs to attach them, how do you stabilize the t-nuts after many hours of use to remove the nut's for maintenance? The steel t-nut's are now rusty, the bolts might have turned if the nut's were attached to the boots with prongs but now it's just a loose screw
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Old February 21st, 2014, 02:33 AM   #29
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I like the Crazy Venus plates on my Bont Quad. I say make it an all Aussie affair with Bont shoes, Crazy plates, and Scott wheels…

Doc mounted my Crazies to my Bonts, and Avengers to my daughter’s Bonts. They fit good and I have never had a problem with them. I have never needed to do maintenance but nothing on my boots have rust or corrosion on them.

The Crazy Venus on my Labedas have been on there longer than I have owned them (they were Doc’s originally) and they are great still.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 04:18 AM   #30
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So, non-stainless t-nut's, no prongs to attach them, how do you stabilize the t-nuts after many hours of use to remove the nut's for maintenance? The steel t-nut's are now rusty, the bolts might have turned if the nut's were attached to the boots with prongs but now it's just a loose screw
The tee nuts don't rust. The zinc plating takes care of that. The screws stay put. The combination of the insole material compressing, the lock washer, and a dab of thread locker does a yeoman's service at keeping everything tight. Even in derby service, I don't see skates come back for loose hardware. Unless they're Antiks.

I haven't been at it as long as the Doc, but I've done a few and while I wouldn't call it easy, there's nothing particularly exotic about doing it. Not sure what type of maintenance requires removing the plate from the boot, but it isn't hard. Replace the lock washers and thread locker on reassembly. I've done remounts on setups I did years ago, and have no issue getting them out.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 12:41 PM   #31
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The tee nuts don't rust. The zinc plating takes care of that. The screws stay put. The combination of the insole material compressing, the lock washer, and a dab of thread locker does a yeoman's service at keeping everything tight. Even in derby service, I don't see skates come back for loose hardware. Unless they're Antiks.

I haven't been at it as long as the Doc, but I've done a few and while I wouldn't call it easy, there's nothing particularly exotic about doing it. Not sure what type of maintenance requires removing the plate from the boot, but it isn't hard. Replace the lock washers and thread locker on reassembly. I've done remounts on setups I did years ago, and have no issue getting them out.
On some of the remounts I've done (my own) I used to fight on trying to save the T-nuts. Finally I said to heck with it. I would get one side bent up and I would grab that side with needle nose vice grips and be done with the fight , that is if I had issues with the removal.
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Old March 3rd, 2014, 06:59 PM   #32
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Old thread anyone? Lol

I have done mounts with and without shoegoo. I have not used T nuts before either, but the function of a t nut and a traditional bolt is the same, neither should move. The glue helps to achieve this so I prefer using it(it also helps to strengthen the hole by filling any gaps/voids created by installing hardware) I haven't mounted to carbon fiber before either, but Dillo's recommendation on using an adhesive to help stabalize the T nuts makes sense. If you happen to use loctite to increase the holding capacity(which I do as well) it again helps to ensure the T-nuts wont move when removing the bolts. It would also help protect the metal from moisture, but as DVW pointed out Zinc keeps that to almost a non issue.

@Big Nick: Honestly bro I would rather spend a couple extra hours on a install to cover all my bases, even the small potential of a T nut coming loose and chewing away at the carbon. Rushing is not good craftsmanship. Afterall its about a 300$ boot, not just some el cheapo skate boot. Might as well treat it like the investment it is. You didn't pay for the boot overnight, might as well let the glue do its thing to help in any way possible.
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Old March 4th, 2014, 12:51 AM   #33
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Just try & pull a tee nut out, I've been forced to drill them out from the inside, strength is not a shortcoming with stainless tee nuts.

Derrick...
I fully agree on that point, and they are not as likely to ever corrode & seize up either.

In addition, if you bond the T-nut to the carbon fiber sole with urethane adhesive, as I suggested in the earlier post, you will not likely experience the problem of T-nut spinning when you try and loosen the mount screw.

Anyone who takes the time to see how properly attached metal fasteners are engineered to be attached to carbon fiber will know that some kind of adhesive interface is the preferred approach, especially when cyclic dynamic loading is involved.

For carbon sole boots where the insoles are bonded to the the soles inner carbon layer, I even advise cutting away a hole in the insole material big enough to allow for the T-nut flange to lay closer to the carbon, and then gluing the flange to the carbon sole. This also counteracts the weakening of the sole caused by the drilling of holes through the carbon fibers.

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Old March 4th, 2014, 01:01 AM   #34
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The tee nuts don't rust. The zinc plating takes care of that. The screws stay put. The combination of the insole material compressing, the lock washer, and a dab of thread locker does a yeoman's service at keeping everything tight. Even in derby service, I don't see skates come back for loose hardware. Unless they're Antiks.

I haven't been at it as long as the Doc, but I've done a few and while I wouldn't call it easy, there's nothing particularly exotic about doing it. Not sure what type of maintenance requires removing the plate from the boot, but it isn't hard. Replace the lock washers and thread locker on reassembly. I've done remounts on setups I did years ago, and have no issue getting them out.
Zinc plated steel T-nuts, in addition to being typically made from low strength crap steel, also WILL rust. Some people have rather acidic sweat, and their feet sweat a lot. I happen to be one of them so I know first hand.

Mounting a plate is a labor intensive process, so why not invest that labor into materials that will stand the test of time for ALL circumstances?
I vote for SS T-nuts on carbon soled boots without any prongs.
The no prong SS ones are much stronger as well. Plus the holes in the flanges let you use an adjustable pin spanner wrench to tighten or loosen them if any seizing with spinning happens.



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Old March 21st, 2014, 11:26 PM   #35
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Boen
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Old March 22nd, 2014, 04:11 AM   #36
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Boen
No way lol.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 05:56 AM   #37
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Old March 29th, 2014, 05:11 AM   #38
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Zinc plated steel T-nuts, in addition to being typically made from low strength crap steel, also WILL rust. Some people have rather acidic sweat, and their feet sweat a lot. I happen to be one of them so I know first hand.
I have not had the issue and have never had any of my skaters report that, but I'll take you at your word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Mounting a plate is a labor intensive process, so why not invest that labor into materials that will stand the test of time for ALL circumstances? I vote for SS T-nuts on carbon soled boots without any prongs. The no prong SS ones are much stronger as well. Plus the holes in the flanges let you use an adjustable pin spanner wrench to tighten or loosen them if any seizing with spinning happens.
Aside from being expensive, stainless tee nuts sure like to gall to stainless screws, and they are a pain to get out when they do, so I don't use them. The bright steel ones I use are more than adequate for the task and I have never had one fail, crap or otherwise.

The ones you show in the picture won't work in a Bont. The shank is way too long. Even on the little ones I use, I sometimes use a piloted counterbore to relieve the plate a little, if it's got some extra meat on it like an Avenger or Ultimate or the like. I do nip the prongs off, and the little nub that's left does a good job of biting into the liner so it doesn't spin. I don't leave enough to reach down into the carbon.

And I'd love to see someone try to get that pin spanner into a skate boot in some repeatable fashion.
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Old March 29th, 2014, 11:39 PM   #39
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Using anodized 7075 aircraft aluminum flat/button socket head cap screws is also an option that obviates the ss-to-ss galling issue too.

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