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Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

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Old June 12th, 2017, 03:20 PM   #81
gsloop
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Re: slippage, if comparing apples to apples, i.e., against other 3 x 125mm wheelsets and not a 4 x somethings. I would guess it's more the G13's narrow profile and x-section's smaller contact point then the urethane compound and or F1 86A hardness.
You are right, it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison - I'm comparing slippage of 4x110 to 3x125 - which is an unequal comparison. I was just rather shocked at the vast difference.

I was trying to slow down to make a greater than 90 degree turn, it was very modestly damp, and I hadn't gotten all the way stopped [or nearly so] with my heel brake. [Yes, I use a heel brake.]

Normally I'd have just committed to the turn and while it might have been a little sketchy, I'd have made it fine. But if I'd done that with the G13's I would have pasted it. As it was, I was kind of trying to step-stop, and it was like I wasn't doing anything - that foot would just slide laterally with the most trivial of resistance. Again, it was just rather astonishing how little grip I had.

-Greg
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Old June 14th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #82
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An update on the G13's [F1]

All things equal, I'd get F2's - I'd rather have something closer to 85A and while these are pretty good, they're still a tad hard for what I want. [But since I couldn't get F2's for the same price, (long story) I got F1's and I'm pretty happy.]

I went out while it was still wet in shaded spots yesterday, and IMO, the G13's are REALLY slick in the wet. Seriously! As bad as anything I've ever been on. I don't skate in the rain often, but I would really hate to be out there on G13's.

And we're just talking places where it was still wet where it hadn't gotten enough direct sun to dry out - not active rain on wet pavement. Perhaps in mitigation - though not much - this is a bike path that probably is a bit "slimy" which makes it more slick. Still, I've skated all these same places on quite a number of different wheels, and on a comparative basis the G13's were still worse than anything else in memory. And it's not always the wet - I've noticed they grip less in places where you're at the end of a push and there's a little debris there too. On good dry stuff, I've not felt it was a problem, but they're not as grippy anywhere as you might expect.

-Greg
Pretty normal for any Matter wheel. Their urethane just isn't very good on any surface than has any amount of water on it. This was the case going back to the days of Matter Juice wheels and right up to the present. From my own testing, I find that MPC wheels are the best in wet conditions. Doesn't even have to be Storm Surges (which are amazing) just MPC in general is better in the wet.

A general FYI, it is easier to skate in a good rain than a gentle mist especially if it has been raining for a while. When a road surface first gets wet, the oils on the surface are still present and are very slippery. This is why freshly paved roads, trails or seal coated surfaces are the worst. After it has been raining for a while, the oils get washed off a bit and the grip improves.
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Old June 14th, 2017, 09:45 PM   #83
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Pretty normal for any Matter wheel. Their urethane just isn't very good on any surface than has any amount of water on it. This was the case going back to the days of Matter Juice wheels and right up to the present. From my own testing, I find that MPC wheels are the best in wet conditions. Doesn't even have to be Storm Surges (which are amazing) just MPC in general is better in the wet.
I'm curious: what hardness of MPC's have you used in the wet? I was on MPC Black Magic XXFirm 4x110 during last year's damp and drizzle Northshore. Traction was quite poor.
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Old June 15th, 2017, 12:45 AM   #84
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I'm curious: what hardness of MPC's have you used in the wet? I was on MPC Black Magic XXFirm 4x110 during last year's damp and drizzle Northshore. Traction was quite poor.
MPC VT in XF (older wheel)
MPC Black Magic in XF
MPC Storm Surge
MPC Street Fight XF (older wheel)

XXF is probably too hard since it is around 87 or 88a. Storm Surges are around 83a as are VT's.
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Old June 29th, 2017, 01:09 PM   #85
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More news from Matter, they've changed their 125mm hubs:

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Old June 30th, 2017, 12:09 PM   #86
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i just wonder how that extra flex is going to effect us 170+ guys.
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Old June 30th, 2017, 01:06 PM   #87
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Hmmm, looks like the same hub with some additional cutouts in it. Same thing they did with their 100/110 hub when they made the "emt" hub or whatever it was called. Probably not a good thing for heavier skaters.
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Old July 17th, 2017, 02:12 AM   #88
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I finally had the chance to use the set of Atom Boom Magic wheels that I picked up from eBay (I think it was actually Nistevo selling them) for a great $24/wheel. I have the XXF and I believe that they roll better than any previous 125mm wheel that I've tried outdoor. It's also the first XXF wheel I've tried outdoor. Here's the list:

Matter One20Five F1
Matter Code White
Matter G13 F1
Roll'X X-Road
MPC Black Magic XF
Atom Boom Road

The Boom Magic seem to roll forever, but like all 125mm wheels I find that they're hard to get and maintain speed. That's why I also ordered a set of 110mm to give them a shot. I have converted back to 110mm for indoor and am doing better on them. I figured that maybe I could follow suit skating outdoor.
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Old July 20th, 2017, 02:26 PM   #89
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So I received the 110mm Boom Magics and like their 125mm big brothers, they had a ton of roll. Not as much as the 125mm did, but they didn't take as much to keep them going as the 125mm did. I ran similar average speed and overall skating times with both setups. Both frames are 13.2". I will say that I felt like I could push better through the 110mm setup and its four contact points.

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Old July 21st, 2017, 06:08 AM   #90
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So I received the 110mm Boom Magics and like their 125mm big brothers, they had a ton of roll. Not as much as the 125mm did, but they didn't take as much to keep them going as the 125mm did. I ran similar average speed and overall skating times with both setups. Both frames are 13.2". I will say that I felt like I could push better through the 110mm setup and its four contact points.
No question about it, larger diameter wheels definitely have less rolling resistance than smaller diameter wheels (assuming same urethane and hub quality). But of course, rolling resistance is dwarfed by air resistance if you're going 20+ mph. Rotation mass and deck height are also factors. For sure, some skaters are definitely faster on 125's. There are probably some skaters who feel like they're faster on 125's, but in reality are going the same speed or maybe even slower.

The weekend before last, at the San Francisco inline marathon, indoor skater Billy Mathis took first place on Pinnacle 4x110. Grant Foster (remember him in the 1998 NSIM?) took second place on Bont 3-pt 4x110. Eddy Matzger took third place on 3x125. That course isn't a typical marathon course, due to the frequent/sketchy turns, so maybe this isn't the best example.
I was overly cautious on the turns, so I got gapped on each one, and had to work pretty hard to catch back up to the lead pack each time. Other than that though, I didn't feel like I was getting out rolled by all of the skaters on 125's, even though I was on tiny little 4x100.

In June, at Apostle, there weren't any serious contenders in the pro elite division on 4x110, so it's no surprise that 125's swept the podium in that division. I was in the 50+ Pro division which had a large majority of skaters on 125's. We started a full minute behind the elite group, but caught quite a few of them. First and second place in our division were taken by skaters on Bont 4x110, at least one of whom had invested significant time on 125's, but decided to go back to 4x110.

I know there are plenty of examples of people skating faster on larger wheels, but I've seen several cases where the opposite is true.
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Old July 21st, 2017, 04:09 PM   #91
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@Spencer

Yeah - I think I tend to agree.

Not that I'm fast, I'm slower than I can really believe right now. [I broke (and then re-cracked) a Tib+Fib the Winter/spring of 2015-2016 - and while I wasn't fast before, I've never gotten back to somewhere close yet.]

But there are several things at play, IMO.
1) The 125 G13's I've got are my first pair of G13's in any size - so I don't have a lot of comparison to, say, 110's. But even in dry & good conditions they fairly regularly seem right at the edge - grip wise. A little dirt, irregularity in the surface and they often come lose and slide while pushing. It's very pronounced compared to 4x110. [G13 F1 125 vs Mayhem 87 110]

2) Deck height doesn't seem to be a large factor for me, but it's at least a contributing factor for slowing you down as you fatigue. [I'd guess technique slips more, compared to 110, as you get tired.]

3) I like the roll of 125, and the larger wheels smooth rough surfaces out - but the reduction of a wheel also increases instability in places. It's not a wash for me - but the reduction of one wheel reduces the advantages some.

4) As noted, I'd go softer if I had a choice - and that feeling has gotten stronger as I've skated these more. One would expect a softer wheel to roll a bit less - and that becomes, perhaps, another modest reduction in performance. [Softer for more grip on a 3x setup vs 4x - larger wheel, better roll, softer urethane less roll...]

I won't be ditching 125mm - I like it quite a lot. But I'm not seeing huge performance gains. The wheels [at least currently] cost more and may not be as good [though quality is improving].

My gut feeling [substantiated by absolutely no real scientific evidence] is there's no great need to go 125. If you like it great. If not, 110's going to do fine.

Oh, we'll see about this - but I think wheel rotation and even wheel wear is easier on 125mm. I always felt the rear wheel on 110 suffered the most on my setups, and while I rotated them, I never felt I got very even wear.

TLDR; 125 vs 110 - it's a wash. Do what you like - but it's not going to change a lot for most mortals.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 12:19 AM   #92
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T Grant Foster (remember him in the 1998 NSIM?)
That is cool that he still skates. Not too many others from the 98 NSIM do.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 03:13 PM   #93
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TLDR; 125 vs 110 - it's a wash. Do what you like - but it's not going to change a lot for most mortals.[/QUOTE]

It's not going to change for most mortals because they don't have good technical skills nor are they willing to learn. The 125 train has left the station, if you're not on it I'm sorry. We've been telling y'all for only a few years now.

Micheal Cheeks just made the kids on 110s look like they were in a granny gear. I cannot believe the resistance to big wheels here in the states, credible coaches with their heads in the sand still, it's hilarious.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 03:24 PM   #94
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http://www.danger-racing.com/halo125bytltf.html


In other news, TLTF has released their outdoor 125 wheel.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 07:19 PM   #95
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http://www.danger-racing.com/halo125bytltf.html


In other news, TLTF has released their outdoor 125 wheel.
Had them in my hands at idn, a beautiful looking wheel. Can't wait to see TLTF pros skate on them.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 07:21 PM   #96
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facebook page says Jimmy will have some in Chicago tomorrow!!! Maybe I've got a reason to hit an ATM on the way over!

wonder what hardnesses available?
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 08:21 PM   #97
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The 125 train has left the station, if you're not on it I'm sorry. We've been telling y'all for only a few years now.

Micheal Cheeks just made the kids on 110s look like they were in a granny gear. I cannot believe the resistance to big wheels here in the states, credible coaches with their heads in the sand still, it's hilarious.
I'm not at IDN, so it's very possible that I have gotten incorrect information, but I thought I had heard that Tanner Worley dominated senior men's division on 4x110, beating skaters like Justin Stelley who were on 3x125. Again, I might have incorrect info. Can anyone confirm?

Now I'm curious... for anyone who was at IDN, what percentage of races were won on 125's?

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Roller-Sp...onship-Results
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 08:58 PM   #98
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I'm not at IDN, so it's very possible that I have gotten incorrect information, but I thought I had heard that Tanner Worley dominated senior men's division on 4x110, beating skaters like Justin Stelley who were on 3x125. Again, I might have incorrect info. Can anyone confirm?

Now I'm curious... for anyone who was at IDN, what percentage of races were won on 125's?

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Roller-Sp...onship-Results
You are correct Spencer, but dominated is not the word I'd use. Tanner is a WC skater, Mike Cheeks is 36 years old/could skate Masters. As for results, I'd say a bunch. On 110s/NSC, Cheeks struggled, but when he had 125s on he moved at will. 8.3 lap times it was impressive. Stelly started on 125s and switched to matter 110s.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 09:37 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MachV View Post
http://www.danger-racing.com/halo125bytltf.html


In other news, TLTF has released their outdoor 125 wheel.
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Originally Posted by reely? View Post
Had them in my hands at idn, a beautiful looking wheel. Can't wait to see TLTF pros skate on them.
Marc Fly has a set that he's used at indoor practices and absolutely loves them. Too bad I converted my indoor skates to 4x110mm or I'd try a set. I have a set of both MPC Black Track and Atom Boom Magic (both XXF) to burn through first.
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Old July 22nd, 2017, 11:00 PM   #100
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You are correct Spencer, but dominated is not the word I'd use. Tanner is a WC skater, Mike Cheeks is 36 years old/could skate Masters. As for results, I'd say a bunch. On 110s/NSC, Cheeks struggled, but when he had 125s on he moved at will. 8.3 lap times it was impressive. Stelly started on 125s and switched to matter 110s.
I could be wrong, but it appeared that Cheeks has some trouble with the sprints on the 125's. Looked like he could do 2 or so fast laps and then he was coasting 1/2 way or more through the corner. This could just be the skater, but I have seen other 125 skaters do this as well. Seems like the 125's overheat doing sub 9 second laps.
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