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Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

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Old October 9th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #1
xXmisskillXx
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Hey Doc,

I'm looking to mount an avenger plate to my size 5 MG2 Antiks. I'd like to do a short forward mount but I'm not sure what size plate to buy. I've also heard about a sport mount. What exactly is the difference?
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Old October 9th, 2012, 04:04 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by xXmisskillXx View Post
Hey Doc,

I'm looking to mount an avenger plate to my size 5 MG2 Antiks.

Sounds like fun...

I'd like to do a short forward mount but I'm not sure what size plate to buy.

I'd use a 1...

I've also heard about a sport mount. What exactly is the difference?
Depending on who is doing the building, the size 1 may be a "sport" mount.

Let me clarify this whole mount thing...

The short forward thing started showing up here in 2006 ( I joined in October 2007 when we moved Ask Doc Sk8 to skatelogforum.) when I built sk8s for some members..


Short by definition is any plate with a wheel base that is shorter than the wheelbase recommended by the industry. Period... Recommend wheelbase lengths are all over the industry and can be dug out if effort is made... Do note that Sure Grip actually recommends Short Forward for the Avenger..


Forward means the front axle is ahead of the center of the ball of the foot. Period...


The terminology "sport mount" came from one of the Roll Line reps to describe a short plate that was not as short as I typically built...but still mounted forward of the ball of the foot..

My short forward?? Short is 3/4 to 1" shorter than the old school recommended length. For example the "most common recommended" wheelbase for my size 9 sk8 is 7". I prefer 6-6 1/4" with 6 3/8" being the outside and this depends mostly on the plates style of action.... But note, any wheel base shorter than 7" is short.... and my lower limit on short is not necessarily your lower limit.

Forward is just at the front of the ball of the foot, not centered under it... but any amount forward of the center of the ball of the foot is forward..

Some folks on here make a big deal about where the rear axle falls under the heel... I pay very little attention to that because the front axle location and wheel base defines where the back axle falls in relation to the heel..

Since short forward is pretty much my terminology, I get to be the ultimate definer
.

One last thing. DO NOT use a Snyder tool to mount shorter plates ahead of the center of the ball of the foot. You will NOT get optimum results.
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Old October 9th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #3
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Great explanation Doc. Wish that could be a 'sticky' somewhere.......


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Old October 9th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #4
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Great explanation Doc. Wish that could be a 'sticky' somewhere.......
Howzat??
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Old October 9th, 2012, 06:06 PM   #5
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zat goot!
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Old November 13th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #6
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The short forward thing started showing up here in 2006 .
I was skating a size 5 Black Diamond plate under a size 11 595 back in 1983!
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #7
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I was skating a size 5 Black Diamond plate under a size 11 595 back in 1983!
Sizes do not interchange between plates.. Any idea what the wheel base was??
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Old November 14th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #8
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Sizes do not interchange between plates.. Any idea what the wheel base was??
It was right about 6.5 inches if memory serves.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #9
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It was right about 6.5 inches if memory serves.

About 5mm shorter than I would like on an 11, but certainly not unheard of.. even back in the day...
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #10
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I was skating a size 5 Black Diamond plate under a size 11 595 back in 1983!
Man. I was only 1 then. But on skates a year after that. You guys make me feel like a little kid.
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Old November 14th, 2012, 05:53 PM   #11
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Man. I was only 1 then. But on skates a year after that. You guys make me feel like a little kid.
In 83, I was in doing a short tour in Korea. I had already been in the Air Force 12 years...
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Old November 14th, 2012, 07:15 PM   #12
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Haha. Sorry for making you feel old. And hijacking the thread. Thank you for the good explanation on the terms short forward and sport mount.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 12:06 AM   #13
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I'd love bring this topic up again although this post may be a bit messy...

I recently got a pair of Riedell 265s with DynaPros on them. The boots are size 13.5 and the wheelbase measures about 190mm (~7 1/2"); the spec sheet says size 9 DynaPros are 188mm so I think that's what's there. They're mounted pretty much against the heel and I feel like I'm falling forward constantly when I skate in them, especially when going up hill I feel like I need to stay on my heels.

I "moved" from R3s with what I'm guessing are Thrust plates measuring around 205mm (~8 1/16") wheelbase, factory mount. I say "moved from" in quotes because I'm still mostly skating these while reffing and coaching derby.

I got some size 6 Avengers to put on the new boots. The wheelbase is comparable (I think the spec sheet says 190mm) to the DynaPros but I want to mount them further forward. I know that it's all "personal preference," but how far forward should I start out with these plates? My initial thinking is to put the tip of the kingpin under the ball of my foot but ... is that crazy talk?

Finally, I'm thinking about mounting the DynaPros to the R3 boots as more of a "street" setup. Are the boots adequately constructed for this or should I sell them for $50 and get a better set of boots? Are there any different mounting concerns for skating around town versus on the nice smooth rink floor? How about if I wanted to visit the skatepark? My gut feeling is that a forward mount will be best for stability in general once I lock in the "stand on the balls of my feet" that I suspect I should be doing when I skate (that comes from my days as a ski instructor) but maybe that suspicion is also wrong...

Oh, finally part two, do people ever mount their plates off of or rotated versus the centerline of the boot? At times I feel like my skates are "off center" when I skate and I was pondering marking a new centerline with the aid of a dowel; stand on a 1" or so dowel down the length of the boot and move around until I feel perfectly balanced when standing on one foot. Is this idea crazy?

Thanks a ton; I've read a bunch of posts here already and I'm ready to start drilling. I just wanted a few more thoughts on the matter...
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Old September 21st, 2014, 05:04 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Crash kerPlunket View Post
I'd love bring this topic up again although this post may be a bit messy...

Aw, what's a little chaos among sk8rs??

I recently got a pair of Riedell 265s with DynaPros on them. The boots are size 13.5 and the wheelbase measures about 190mm (~7 1/2"); the spec sheet says size 9 DynaPros are 188mm so I think that's what's there. They're mounted pretty much against the heel and I feel like I'm falling forward constantly when I skate in them, especially when going up hill I feel like I need to stay on my heels.

I have run into that comment form other folks with that sk8. All the way to the back of the heel is a convenient reference appoint for quick assembly. Unfortunately, the heel is NOT the key player here. It is the ball of the foot.

I "moved" from R3s with what I'm guessing are Thrust plates measuring around 205mm (~8 1/16") wheelbase, factory mount. I say "moved from" in quotes because I'm still mostly skating these while reffing and coaching derby.

That cannot be much fun.

I got some size 6 Avengers to put on the new boots. The wheelbase is comparable (I think the spec sheet says 190mm) to the DynaPros but I want to mount them further forward. I know that it's all "personal preference," but how far forward should I start out with these plates? My initial thinking is to put the tip of the kingpin under the ball of my foot but ... is that crazy talk?

Having never used the king pin as a reference for plate placement, I cannot say for sure. I typically aim to put the front axle at the front of the ball of the foot.

Finally, I'm thinking about mounting the DynaPros to the R3 boots as more of a "street" setup. Are the boots adequately constructed for this or should I sell them for $50 and get a better set of boots?

The R3 is not what I would recommend, although I have put Avengers on R3s for bucks down PhD candidates that play derby locally and they have gone 3 seasons now. However, DynaPors have a nasty habit of breaking trucks and having the king pins come loose.

Are there any different mounting concerns for skating around town versus on the nice smooth rink floor?

Not particularly..

How about if I wanted to visit the skatepark?

I have heard so many "stories" about what cannot be done on a short forward mount only to see the impossible occur before my eyes. One of our members likes to say something along the lines of just because you cannot do something does not mean I cannot. That will be up to you.

My gut feeling is that a forward mount will be best for stability in general once I lock in the "stand on the balls of my feet" that I suspect I should be doing when I skate (that comes from my days as a ski instructor) but maybe that suspicion is also wrong...

Makes sense... although I do not think skiing is much related to sk8ing.

Oh, finally part two, do people ever mount their plates off of or rotated versus the centerline of the boot?

I never mount plates on the center line of the boot.

At times I feel like my skates are "off center" when I skate

Is your inside front wheel sticking out from under the boot further then the outside wheel?? If so you have exactly described what you are feeling..


and I was pondering marking a new centerline with the aid of a dowel; stand on a 1" or so dowel down the length of the boot and move around until I feel perfectly balanced when standing on one foot. Is this idea crazy?

Interesting idea. I find that as long as the front axle is located @ the front of the ball of the foot and the plate is centered under the shoe there you are in the sweet spot.

Thanks a ton; I've read a bunch of posts here already and I'm ready to start drilling. I just wanted a few more thoughts on the matter...
Keep reading. This can be a lot of fun...
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Old September 23rd, 2014, 06:12 PM   #15
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That cannot be much fun.
Well, I have giant feet so long plates were expected on the newbie gear. Those are essentially the skates that I learned on, so while I can't turn quickly without breaking traction, I'm used to them...

Quote:
I typically aim to put the front axle at the front of the ball of the foot.
Ok, so basically if everything were compressed, the axle would end up in the bend in my toes right between the ball and the toe pads? At my big toe, or wherever the front-most part of my foot lands?

Quote:
I never mount plates on the center line of the boot.
...
I find that as long as the front axle is located @ the front of the ball of the foot and the plate is centered under the shoe there you are in the sweet spot.
Italics mine, I'm not quite following...

When I look down at the mounted skate, there should be even amounts of axle sticking out from the left as from the right, in both front and back? I noticed last night that I see a little more wheel on the inside of the skates than the outside, at least up front.

Thanks a ton.
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Old September 23rd, 2014, 08:52 PM   #16
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Well, I have giant feet so long plates were expected on the newbie gear. Those are essentially the skates that I learned on, so while I can't turn quickly without breaking traction, I'm used to them...

That can be remedied..

Ok, so basically if everything were compressed, the axle would end up in the bend in my toes right between the ball and the toe pads? At my big toe, or wherever the front-most part of my foot lands?

Right where the big toe starts. Further forward and you are heading to what the Aussies like..


Italics mine, I'm not quite following...

And Italics don't show up in quote boxes. So I pulled them up in my edit mode.

When I look down at the mounted skate, there should be even amounts of axle sticking out from the left as from the right, in both front and back?

In front only. The inside wheel should stick out in the back. The axis line is through the center of the heel. If you center the rear wheels, the axis line points to the outside of the heel. There are diagrams up all over the forums.. You just have to look for 'em..

I noticed last night that I see a little more wheel on the inside of the skates than the outside, at least up front.

Yeah, that does not surprise me.

Thanks a ton.
No sweat.
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Old March 15th, 2016, 07:20 AM   #17
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Similar question but with size 7.5 Antik AR-1...

Would a short forward mounted size 1 Avenger be considered extreme? Mostly for session skating, kind of wanting to test the limits of short forward mount on a DA45. My standard mounted 16 degree plates feel balanced way too far back for my liking, possibly due in part to my inline roots.
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Old March 15th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #18
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Similar question but with size 7.5 Antik AR-1...

Would a short forward mounted size 1 Avenger be considered extreme? Mostly for session skating, kind of wanting to test the limits of short forward mount on a DA45. My standard mounted 16 degree plates feel balanced way too far back for my liking, possibly due in part to my inline roots.

If Antiks are sized the same as Riedells (you would think because that is where they are made) then that would be pushing it in my book. I would typically say 2.
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Old March 16th, 2016, 10:04 PM   #19
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If Antiks are sized the same as Riedells (you would think because that is where they are made) then that would be pushing it in my book. I would typically say 2.
FWIW I wear a size 7 Bont hybrid carbon boot. I am currently on the Pilot Falcon Plus size 6.00 with wheelbase 152mm. It doesn't feel so short, and compared to the size 2 Avenger, that's only a 2mm difference.

I am guessing here that the biggest difference (besides the plates themselves) comes from moving from a standard to a short forward mount location?
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Old March 17th, 2016, 05:20 AM   #20
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FWIW I wear a size 7 Bont hybrid carbon boot. I am currently on the Pilot Falcon Plus size 6.00 with wheelbase 152mm. It doesn't feel so short, and compared to the size 2 Avenger, that's only a 2mm difference.

I am guessing here that the biggest difference (besides the plates themselves) comes from moving from a standard to a short forward mount location?
A 152 on a 7 Bont is short, so you are half way there. Moving the plate forward moves the front axle which is the intent, but it also moves the rear axle forward as well. This can be the point of concern but with proper derby stance it isn't really an issue.

Post up some pix of a side view of your Bont / Falcon + sk8s. Pix instructions are here.

BTW I was rolling my size 8 Bonts w/ 6.25" (159mm) Eagle + (That is what the plastic one is called right??) last evening.
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