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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old December 16th, 2006, 03:06 PM   #1
1.flatwheel
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Smile Figures and Toes stops..

I just had to say something about this and it will never get laided to rest till I get out in the open..
Whats with getting marked down for having toe stops while doing figures.. I dont get it.. I want all me teeth if I fall doing and three turn or bracket or counter.. or loops
I asked a judge this once at nationals and all she said is "Thats the way we like it." .. Umm look at my teeth I want to keep them.. I said. "Well its always been that way and it will never change.. " she says.
This was after I skated my figures and was doing quite well.. Till the last figure and I fell on my face a cut my lip. I was so shook up that I finished last in figures.. I droped from 2-3 placeings to the bottom..

I asked a ice skating Judge who was a friend about how its done with them and she told me.
We use to have no pics on the figure blades but too many people were getting hurt. Now we look to see if the pic leaves a mark at the top of the turn or assists on the push off. On the loop it will slow you right down or trip you if your too far forward..

If you use your toe stop it going to clearly show....
Let me know what you think
I'm surprised that no one has ever been sued..
I'm sure there has been worst falls than mine..

Last edited by 1.flatwheel; December 17th, 2006 at 03:37 PM.
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Old December 27th, 2006, 12:25 AM   #2
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Cool Re: Figures and Toes stops..

True - figure falls are worst then freestyle/dance falls, because there is basically no velocity - so you fall harder then you would in freestyle or dance, but you need to be careful about your center of gravity - if you're careful about your center of gravity, you'll most likely be able to keep all of your teeth. Don't get all of your weight either too much of your toe when you are skating forwards, or having all of your weight on your heel when you are skating backwards - just don't lean one way too much or you’ll tip right over. Turns are another thing - careful about your body position and slipperiness of your wheels. Toestops can trip you too when you aren't careful, and I believe it is against the rules if you use them skating figures, but I don't know if that's true. It is tradition to have no toestops, but if you don't have a separate pair of figure skates, using a pair of skates that do have a spot for toestops or dance plugs - use the dance plugs - they are a lot smaller. The other reason for not having toestops is so the judges can see your edge, if you wiggle or something. Most likely it is tradition for judging reasons.
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Old December 30th, 2006, 09:30 AM   #3
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Yeah, I'm kind of copying snydertoestops on this one. I think they restrict the usage of toe stops because they don't want a toe push. They want a push from the edges alone. I don't know why an edge push is always considered better than a toe push.
You can see the problem more clearly in ice skating because the picks are closer to the ground and have more grip. Figures are not what they used to be on ice and almost every skater has toe picks. Teachers have to continually remind their students not to toe push in their normal skating. I think it's for aesthetic reasons more than anything else.
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Old December 31st, 2006, 03:42 AM   #4
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A lot of people consider figures to be the basic building block for skating. Relying on toe stops for take offs is not a good thing further down the road.

I am have been skating for years, but recently I have started taking figures and dance lessons. I know if skated with toe stops in, it would not be able to have the correct form in certain areas. Some of the otehr club members even remove their dance plugs because they will drag.

But, I have witnessed some nasty falls during figures. Although they don't look bad, one girl broke a tail bone and another broke a wrist. I don't know if toe stops would have helped or not.
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Old January 2nd, 2007, 07:29 PM   #5
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Red face Drag?

"Some of the otehr club members even remove their dance plugs because they will drag."

What do you mean, drag? Drag their toe? In figures or dance? You never want to drag your toe if it is just the metal showing (where your dance plug or toestop goes) on dance/figure skates - it chips the floor (if it is wood) and may not be good for your plate.
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Old January 3rd, 2007, 01:32 AM   #6
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They drag in figures. But, it is mostly my speed buddies that are dabbeling in the artistic world. Dragging in dance has not been a problem unless something is really wrong.

And by drag, I mean skim the dance plug across the floor, just enough to create drag and mess with balance.
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Old January 3rd, 2007, 03:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
They drag in figures. But, it is mostly my speed buddies that are dabbeling in the artistic world. Dragging in dance has not been a problem unless something is really wrong.

And by drag, I mean skim the dance plug across the floor, just enough to create drag and mess with balance.
right as long as you have a plug or small toe stop in it to drag its alright. but if theres nothing in it you will put a scratch or deep one in a wood floor and also take up the coating.

Rick
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Old January 4th, 2007, 01:59 AM   #8
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Quote:
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They drag in figures. But, it is mostly my speed buddies that are dabbeling in the artistic world. Dragging in dance has not been a problem unless something is really wrong.

And by drag, I mean skim the dance plug across the floor, just enough to create drag and mess with balance.
Hard plugs like the Fo-Mac ones will not create enough friction to mess with balance or edging (unless the skater really screws up).

Also, it seems like a big fat toe stop would make it much more difficult for judges to observe edge consistancy. Competition skaters have all kinds of tricks that attempt to divert the judges attention away from their weak points.

Rokwel
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Old January 8th, 2007, 06:13 AM   #9
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I can't imagine doing figures with toe stops, I'd be more afraid of them getting in the way and lock up with wheels on pushes. Can you correctly push with a toe stop mounted?

I have a pair of figure boots with non-toestop plates. My skates feel so different I have no problems switching. When I take the toestops off my freestyle/dance plates, I have to think about it. I've seen skaters of all levels forget they removed the stops with predictable results

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Old January 14th, 2007, 03:22 AM   #10
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Talking Drag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
And by drag, I mean skim the dance plug across the floor, just enough to create drag and mess with balance.
Ohhhh, Ok, with the toe plug - ok =)
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Old February 6th, 2007, 02:41 PM   #11
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Figures with toe stops??? How weird!

I can't imagine doing that. Is this because you only have one pair of skates? Do you adjust them for figures?

At one point I had the same pair of skates for figures and loops (no toe stops!) and I would adjust them - I think I did 4 clicks to switch back and forth. But even that wasn't always right, so eventually I had three pairs of skates - a different pair for figures, loops, and freestyle.

Maybe my parents were spoiling me!
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Old February 19th, 2007, 07:58 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by rokdaddy View Post
Hard plugs like the Fo-Mac ones will not create enough friction to mess with balance or edging (unless the skater really screws up).

Also, it seems like a big fat toe stop would make it much more difficult for judges to observe edge consistancy. Competition skaters have all kinds of tricks that attempt to divert the judges attention away from their weak points.

Rokwel

Rokdaddy:

Could you give an example? This is too funny for me to hear. For back in the day, I would have loved to known how to have done this. Any of the ones you seen or heard.



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Old February 20th, 2007, 07:07 PM   #13
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Smile

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Figures with toe stops??? How weird!

I can't imagine doing that. Is this because you only have one pair of skates? Do you adjust them for figures?

At one point I had the same pair of skates for figures and loops (no toe stops!) and I would adjust them - I think I did 4 clicks to switch back and forth. But even that wasn't always right, so eventually I had three pairs of skates - a different pair for figures, loops, and freestyle.
I remember having to adjust between dance, freestyle and figures.. with one pair of skates... what a pain! Finaly got my own pair of (beautiful - because I love them) figure skates - and quit dance. I also know somebody who has three pairs of skates, one for figures, loops, and dance.
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Old February 23rd, 2007, 12:29 AM   #14
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Rokdaddy:

Could you give an example? This is too funny for me to hear. For back in the day, I would have loved to known how to have done this. Any of the ones you seen or heard.

Pastskater
Pastskater,
Although I was never very serious about art skating (I participated as a kid to be around the girls at the rink), I do remember one "trick" described by our figures coach when I asked her about the ugly brown skate covers that skaters often use: apparently it is (was) a common tactic to use dull boot covers and color neutral wheels in an attempt divert the judges eyes away from the skates (and edges).

I have never heard of a skater using a toe stop to obscure their truck/plate assembly, it was just a guess to try to explain why judges would be aginst using stops for figures. It seems as silly as a gymnast wearing a big fat inner tube around their waist to hide flaws in their routines, but I wouldn't be totally suprised if somone has at least considered it at some point.

Rokwel
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Old February 24th, 2007, 12:42 AM   #15
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Pastskater,
Although I was never very serious about art skating (I participated as a kid to be around the girls at the rink), I do remember one "trick" described by our figures coach when I asked her about the ugly brown skate covers that skaters often use: apparently it is (was) a common tactic to use dull boot covers and color neutral wheels in an attempt divert the judges eyes away from the skates (and edges).

I have never heard of a skater using a toe stop to obscure their truck/plate assembly, it was just a guess to try to explain why judges would be aginst using stops for figures. It seems as silly as a gymnast wearing a big fat inner tube around their waist to hide flaws in their routines, but I wouldn't be totally suprised if somone has at least considered it at some point.

Rokwel
I love the innertube story the best!!!!

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Old October 8th, 2007, 09:00 PM   #16
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I love figures, but I never want figure boots, I'm scared of them >.< It's stupid, because I am all right at doing them, you know, posture's ok and I never use my toe-stops. But I've tried figure boots before for about a year (AGES ago now -_-) and I was just so nervous knowing there weren't toe-stops that I just couldn't get on with them.

It's never a good thing to be scared of falling in skating and I tried to convince myself that nothing bad was going to happen if I do my figures the same as I normally do. My mind just wouldn't co-operate though, and so I went back to doing figures in my free skates =/

It's a shame for skaters to get marked down, and like you say, if the judges are watching correctly, then of course they'd notice if a toe-stop was used. So just because someone is using skates with stops on, I see no reason to mark them down just because of personal preference, it's not really fair to my mind.

Although, I will say that I prefer to watch skaters doing figures without toe-stops ... so I'm kind of contradictory in my opinion xD. However, if I were a judge, I wouldn't mark down a skater who preferred stoppers on their skates. I just wouldn't really see the point ...
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Old October 9th, 2007, 10:29 AM   #17
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Why no toe stops?

For years when people like Jimmie P and I were kiddies there were very few plates available without toe stops. For years Snyder didn't make a toe stop-less plate. So we were all forced to remove our toe stops with an Allen wrench and use a dance plug and normally tighten up the adjustment when we skated figures.

Only the rich kids were lucky enough to afford more than ONE pair of skates! Can you imagine one of today's kids only having one pair of skates to do figures, dance and even freestyle in? Well we did it.

Somewhere about the time I hit what is Freshman today (AKA Junior in ye Old days...) my coach insisted that my firmer (read that newer) boots would be used for figures, and much to my parents dismay and pocketbook we had to buy another pair of $nyder plates, wheels and Fafnir bearings for these skates. The older set was relegated to dance and/or freestyle, until the boots got too small and then they purchased a new not as firm/strong pair of boots for my dance/freestyle skates.

The reason for no toe stops was because in school figures it is considered "pure" skating-- complete control of all edges, turns, transitions, loops and take offs can not even hint at the use of a toe stop. Besides hindering your ability to keep close transitions and trip yourself into the floor with a nose plant, it does hinder the judges ability to clearly see the edge of the skate head on, especially with a large stop.

My first pair of plates that was toe stop free was a pair of spring steel Snyder's that Tink Weaver cut specifically for me before they sold Snyder. While it took some getting used to the change in balance from the weight differences under my foot, between them and the first pair of Royals I owned, these were the absolute best skates I've ever owned and changed my figure scores for the better by 15%. The reason could be directly attributed to the fact that the plates and boots forced me to hold a better quality edge.

As for dance-- I've never skated in a toe stop less plate.

I personally have no problem in seeing older skaters use the baby Snyder stop, especially if they need the security of being able to stop quickly.

Figure falls are totally the absolute worst, except when you lock your feet up in a back cross in the Harris Tango and go free falling into a fanny plant into the floor! That earned me a trip to ER and I broke several blood vessels in my fanny that ran black and blue down the back of my legs as if someone had beaten me. It made an interesting Regionals that year-- as everyone accused my coach of beating me! <grin>

Mary Lu
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Old October 10th, 2007, 02:47 AM   #18
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Default Toe stops

With three-turns on quads I go forwards on my face much more than I would like. I also go straght down flat which is really scary. On freestyle I roll which is a lot safer. I can do decent three turns on ice, inlines or freestyle quads, but not figures on quads. When I practice the three turns I find the toe stop essential to keep me from going down.

I would think that the judges could just tell if you are using the toe and then deduct like anything else. Toe pushes are obvious. On the forward figures they do get in the way if they aren't adjusted right. Also if you hit the toe stops it would be a definite warning sign to yourself that you are too far forwards and need to work on balance.

On ice they would definitely deduct for using the toe stop and it was also very obvious since it would not make the proper sound of a push. But the ice figure blades I had still had a small toe stop and were often just variations of a freestyle blade.

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Originally Posted by 1.flatwheel View Post
I just had to say something about this and it will never get laided to rest till I get out in the open..
Whats with getting marked down for having toe stops while doing figures.. I dont get it.. I want all me teeth if I fall doing and three turn or bracket or counter.. or loops
I asked a judge this once at nationals and all she said is "Thats the way we like it." .. Umm look at my teeth I want to keep them.. I said. "Well its always been that way and it will never change.. " she says.
This was after I skated my figures and was doing quite well.. Till the last figure and I fell on my face a cut my lip. I was so shook up that I finished last in figures.. I droped from 2-3 placeings to the bottom..

I asked a ice skating Judge who was a friend about how its done with them and she told me.
We use to have no pics on the figure blades but too many people were getting hurt. Now we look to see if the pic leaves a mark at the top of the turn or assists on the push off. On the loop it will slow you right down or trip you if your too far forward..

If you use your toe stop it going to clearly show....
Let me know what you think
I'm surprised that no one has ever been sued..
I'm sure there has been worst falls than mine..
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Old October 10th, 2007, 04:31 AM   #19
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all i know is that there is NO way I could do figures (or loops!) with a toestop. I would trip and fall from hitting it one my wheels more than i fall now. Seriously, if you have toestops, you are keeping your feet farther apart during pushes and are doing the figure wrong. So you cannot have toestops.

One time I tried to do figures in my freestyle skates and i tripped everywhere because of my toestops.

Although figure falls can be pretty bad, if your not leaning too far forward or backward, you have nothing to worry about. Plus, I've fallen many times doing loops especially but also backwards figures and i have never seriously hurt myself (knock on wood) other than a small bruise.

So I think that the judge is right you shouldnt have toestops in your figure skates especially because if you do, you are not doing the pushes right or passing your leg close enough.
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Old October 10th, 2007, 04:58 AM   #20
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back in the really early days skates didn't have toe stops.

Simply put you don't need toe stops to do figures...and from a judging perspective they might like stop-less plates better to see your tracing my dear. And of course lets not forget about "the look". Yes, this has been and still seems to be a certain look that goes into how figures should be performed. It's hard to describe, but I know it when I see it...and I can tell you when it's missing.

If you only have one pair of skates, and they have a stop receptor, the obvious solution is plugs. But I'd never rely on those to stop me, I'd be just as likely to fall on my face with plugs as with nothing at all.

This is a rather strange discussion. I just can't relate, I've been skating completely stopless for months. I even do jumps in my figure skates...no toe loops, or toe-salcows for me, lol. I suppose it might have taken some getting used to...but I'm so very comfortable with it now. I wouldn't have it any other way.
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