S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice)
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 4th, 2012, 02:21 AM   #1
Poobah
Senior Member
 
Poobah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,272
Default Super Deluxe, click action?

Scored a pair of Snyder Super Deluxes, I'm replacing the rubber rocks with blue super barrels (per a post I found on one of the boards here). So far, so good. Nothing seems to be cross-threaded, stuck or rusty. The jump bars needs a bit of elbow grease and I probably want to polish 'em up nice with something.

I read the Snyder Owner's Manual on the Sure-Grip site pretty thoroughly. A fair bit of it is kinda marketing fluff. Good info on the mounting process (almost glad I blew the $55 on the marking tool, LOL) and adjusting pivot pins. Sure-Grip really ought to have something like that for distributors and builders to throw in the box with their DA45 plates.

Do these plates have click action? If so, how do I use it? From taking them apart they seem to simply have a conventional kingpin (that's a little odd-looking), a 3/4" bolt down at the end (also a bit different) and the kingpin screws in/out with a regular hex key.

Seems odd to me that the almost ridiculously thorough manual talks about click action (which might only be on the Royals/Imperials?) but don't appear to advise the owner on how to actually use it. Nothing has "clicked" as of yet.
__________________
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek
Poobah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 04:39 AM   #2
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poobah View Post
Scored a pair of Snyder Super Deluxes, I'm replacing the rubber rocks with blue super barrels (per a post I found on one of the boards here). So far, so good. Nothing seems to be cross-threaded, stuck or rusty. The jump bars needs a bit of elbow grease and I probably want to polish 'em up nice with something.

I read the Snyder Owner's Manual on the Sure-Grip site pretty thoroughly. A fair bit of it is kinda marketing fluff. Good info on the mounting process (almost glad I blew the $55 on the marking tool, LOL) and adjusting pivot pins. Sure-Grip really ought to have something like that for distributors and builders to throw in the box with their DA45 plates.

Send 'em an email. Link on the web site..


Do these plates have click action?

Standard Super Deluxe do not.. It is used on the figure plates only..


If so, how do I use it? From taking them apart they seem to simply have a conventional kingpin (that's a little odd-looking), a 3/4" bolt down at the end (also a bit different) and the kingpin screws in/out with a regular hex key.

Conventional Snyder King pin..

Seems odd to me that the almost ridiculously thorough manual talks about click action (which might only be on the Royals/Imperials?) but don't appear to advise the owner on how to actually use it. Nothing has "clicked" as of yet.



Here is the current version on a Royal.. Not stock, I did the mod..

NOTE: Most of the Snyder bits are interchangeable to some degree..



Here is the advert for the OG version.. You can see the indents in the cushion retainer that "click" when the adjuster nut is turned..



Very similar to the Roll Line click action king pin on the rt side..The whole purpose was to make the action easy for figure sk8rs to change adjustments for the different circles without any guess work... For example, click 3 right then click 3 left to go back to where you were....
Unfortunately the Snyder parts to convert are way pricey... It's simpler and cheaper to go to the regular Royal reverse king pin..
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #3
Poobah
Senior Member
 
Poobah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,272
Default

One thing I've never been entirely comfy with is adjusting the action on a plate with a standard kingpin (I actually think of THESE as being the ones that are reversed).

Do I screw the kingpin all the way in and use the 3/4" nut to loosen/tighten the action? Some part of my brain always wants to see those nuts as being there to secure the kingpin to the plate. When there's one nut instead of two, it seems to either be somehow doing two jobs or not doing one or the other...

Probably I just need to rethink my perception of how things work.
__________________
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek
Poobah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 06:36 PM   #4
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poobah View Post
One thing I've never been entirely comfy with is adjusting the action on a plate with a standard kingpin (I actually think of THESE as being the ones that are reversed).

The "reverse" king pin is called that because it is locked into the plate and NOT adjusted by loosening the lock nut.. Backward from the usual method.. In other words, the actual adjustment occurs on the opposite end of the king pin.


Do I screw the kingpin all the way in and use the 3/4" nut to loosen/tighten the action?

Not all the way in.. If you can screw the conventional king pin in that far, you need to look at replacing cushions.. But yes, You loosen the 3/4" cross bar nut (correct technical name) about 1/4 turn. The screw the king pin in to make the action less responsive, screw it out to get more response. Then tighten the nut.. NOTE: NO matter what type of king pin you have in a Snyder check to ensure the Cross bar nut is tight every time you sk8 until you are sure you have it where it won't move.. Then check them about every other week..

Some part of my brain always wants to see those nuts as being there to secure the kingpin to the plate.

That is the purpose of the cross bar nuts. They are also the adjustment lock nuts.. The advantage of the conventional king pin is fewer parts count. The disadvantages are the king pin wears the plate / hanger as you make adjustments and if you do not lock the king pin in properly it will weld itself into the plate.. DO NOT use the Cross bar nut (or the king pin lock nuts on conventional plates) as the tension adjustment nut. As you screw the nut down tighter against the cushion, it leaves a bigger gap between the plate and the nut, which will wreck the plate in no time..

When there's one nut instead of two, it seems to either be somehow doing two jobs or not doing one or the other...

NO. Even with one, the nut still only does one job. Lock the kin pin in place. The head on the king pin is used to adjust the tension.

Probably I just need to rethink my perception of how things work.
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 10:44 AM   #5
rwsz
Senior Member
 
rwsz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: mass
Posts: 6,851
Default

one other thing Doc is on standard super deluxe plates and kingpins the locknuts lock turning them towards the plate and down away from the cushions. many skaters i seen lock them up towards the cushions and jump bars which will only break the king pins eventually.
__________________
Ciao Rick
rwsz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 05:32 PM   #6
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Thumbs up Exactly..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsz View Post
one other thing Doc is on standard super deluxe plates and kingpins the locknuts lock turning them towards the plate and down away from the cushions. many skaters i seen lock them up towards the cushions and jump bars which will only break the king pins eventually.

No matter what king pin you have if it has a lock nut it MUST always be tightened against the plate and NEVER tightened against the action.. This should probably be mentioned in every post I make..
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 12:24 AM   #7
Poobah
Senior Member
 
Poobah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,272
Default

NT
__________________
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek

Last edited by Poobah; July 6th, 2012 at 03:24 AM. Reason: Oops, double-posted while the board was running slow...
Poobah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 12:33 AM   #8
Poobah
Senior Member
 
Poobah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post

Unfortunately the Snyder parts to convert are way pricey... It's simpler and cheaper to go to the regular Royal reverse king pin..
Might that be typically sold under some other name? Or double as the kingpin for another Snyder plate?

The only Snyder Kingpins I'm finding are the Super Tough for the Super Deluxe and Imperial (odd, I'd assumed the Royal would take same kingpin as Imperial). Super Tough looks conventional, pretty sure I've already got four of them.

The one that appears to be a reverse kingpin is the Advantage kingpin. Threaded on both ends. Would that be long enough to fit on a Royal?

I've Google searched on Snyder "Royal kingpins," I've checked two less-great skate shops that tend to carry almost everything, I've checked two really good skate shops (both of which carry the Royal but ONLY the Super Tough conventional kingpin) and one that's kinda up the middle (they sell it too, no Snyder kingpins at all). Nobody seems to be selling a Snyder Royal kingpin. There's a downside to lifetime warrantied products... less demand for spare parts?

And uh, free shipping ends in a few hours...
__________________
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek
Poobah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 03:47 AM   #9
Acid Burn
Rollerskatin' Parts Wench
 
Acid Burn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 808
Default

I'm still trying to figure out the click action on my Mariner Cups
Acid Burn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 04:26 AM   #10
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Burn View Post
I'm still trying to figure out the click action on my Mariner Cups
What exactly is not doing what you want??
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 04:38 AM   #11
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poobah View Post
Might that be typically sold under some other name? Or double as the kingpin for another Snyder plate?

Uh could be... Originally the Royal had an aluminum bolt with a tiny hex head for a king pin.. When SG put the Royal back into production, the "derby" version used an obsolete Snyder figure pin called the "Single D" because of the flat machined into it to lock the click mechanism... SG said there enough of those to last forever... We ran out in a year and a half or so.. Now there is a new version that has no flat spots... This was made for the Derby Royal..

The SS Royal uses the Ti King pin from The Snyder World Dominator..


The only Snyder Kingpins I'm finding are the Super Tough for the Super Deluxe and Imperial (odd, I'd assumed the Royal would take same kingpin as Imperial).

No, we wanted to get away from the standard king pin..

Super Tough looks conventional, pretty sure I've already got four of them.

Black??

The one that appears to be a reverse kingpin is the Advantage kingpin. Threaded on both ends. Would that be long enough to fit on a Royal?

If it is the second generation Advantage yes. I believe it is the same king pin the current click action uses.. Goes by the name of the Double D since it has a flat on 2 sides. (I put the World Dominator Ti king pin in my Advantages) The first generation Advantage used a shortened P Trac king pin..

I've Google searched on Snyder "Royal kingpins," I've checked two less-great skate shops that tend to carry almost everything, I've checked two really good skate shops (both of which carry the Royal but ONLY the Super Tough conventional kingpin) and one that's kinda up the middle (they sell it too, no Snyder kingpins at all). Nobody seems to be selling a Snyder Royal kingpin. There's a downside to lifetime warrantied products... less demand for spare parts?

And uh, free shipping ends in a few hours...
There is a serious down side to dealing with folks that do not know the ins and outs of some of the less usual Snyder plates.. I believe help could be a PM away..
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #12
rwsz
Senior Member
 
rwsz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: mass
Posts: 6,851
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post

No matter what king pin you have if it has a lock nut it MUST always be tightened against the plate and NEVER tightened against the action.. This should probably be mentioned in every post I make..
the atlas doesnt really have a lock nut, it goes against the action (lower nut) and the top screw locks it in place.
__________________
Ciao Rick
rwsz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 02:51 PM   #13
dvw
Secretary of Skate
 
dvw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hendersonville, TN
Posts: 4,404
Default Begging the Doctor's indulgence

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
If it is the second generation Advantage yes. I believe it is the same king pin the current click action uses..
The new style Advantage kingpins are a good half inch or so shorter than the regular Snyder stuff. The threads are the same and they'll fit, but there isn't much meat left inside the hanger.

Ask me how I know.
__________________
Find some roller derby girls. Don't try to romance them! That don't end well. okie 10/12/2011
Royals FTW! When only the shiny will do... Doc Sk8 05/19/2012
dvw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #14
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvw View Post
The new style Advantage kingpins are a good half inch or so shorter than the regular Snyder stuff. The threads are the same and they'll fit, but there isn't much meat left inside the hanger.

Ask me how I know.

Probably a similar way that occurred here now that I remember...

Boy you can tell my short term memory is getting really weak.. I had my hands on a set of those pins the other day... Sent to replace the 1/2 x 20 P Trac style.. You are referring to the ones with the flat in the middle??

Since it is obviously fresher in your memory dvw, please describe the adjusting end for us..


Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsz View Post
the atlas doesnt really have a lock nut, it goes against the action (lower nut) and the top screw locks it in place.
Again quite true Rick. There are a few sk8s that have the click action next to the plate and no lock nut I can see..

Some / All of the Boiani plates, the Paioli dance / art plates, the Skater art / figure plates, the Italian Dance WIP and the American Whip (although it was not a click per se, it just had the adjuster nut between the lock nut and the cushion) to name a few besides the ATLAS...

Keep me honest guys. I appreciate it..
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 05:06 PM   #15
Acid Burn
Rollerskatin' Parts Wench
 
Acid Burn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 808
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
What exactly is not doing what you want??
It just doesn't seem to make a difference how I set the clicks. My skates still feel a bit squirrelly. BTW I have blue urethane cushions in them and I weigh about 140. I felt even more squirrelly with the natural rubber cushions.
Acid Burn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #16
dvw
Secretary of Skate
 
dvw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hendersonville, TN
Posts: 4,404
Default You ain't the only one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Since it is obviously fresher in your memory dvw, please describe the adjusting end for us.
Just barely.

Your right, they're the ones with the unthreaded section in the middle that has a flat ground out of each side. The pointy end, if I remember right, has a grub screw and a single slit cut but no "D" cut. Biggest difference is the length.
__________________
Find some roller derby girls. Don't try to romance them! That don't end well. okie 10/12/2011
Royals FTW! When only the shiny will do... Doc Sk8 05/19/2012
dvw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 12:43 AM   #17
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Burn View Post
It just doesn't seem to make a difference how I set the clicks. My skates still feel a bit squirrelly. BTW I have blue urethane cushions in them and I weigh about 140. I felt even more squirrelly with the natural rubber cushions.
Interesting... My Roll Lines have the green ones all the way loose and they are not squirrelly enough for me.. ( I weigh 230) However, your experience with the natural cushions makes sense.. They are about equivalent to the gray urethane.

Can you tell a difference at all when you tighten them down??
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 7th, 2012, 10:50 PM   #18
Acid Burn
Rollerskatin' Parts Wench
 
Acid Burn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 808
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Interesting... My Roll Lines have the green ones all the way loose and they are not squirrelly enough for me.. ( I weigh 230) However, your experience with the natural cushions makes sense.. They are about equivalent to the gray urethane.

Can you tell a difference at all when you tighten them down??


I haven't tried that yet. I'll try it as soon as I get the chance to sk8 (busy broke bee lately) and see if there's a difference.
Acid Burn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2012, 02:26 PM   #19
Poobah
Senior Member
 
Poobah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,272
Default

To be perfectly honest, I'm not seeing the prices I'd likely pay to convert these to reverse kingpins to be money well spent. For the same $60ish bucks I could convert and old SA45 plate to DA45 and get all that and more. The biggest problem with the current set-up isn't so much the adjustment and tweaking of them (once I figured it out) it's really just the "putting the plate back together after it's mounted." Generally only needs to be done once or twice, so that's no big deal. And given that it's got the Snyder measuring tool's notch on the plate, I won't be needing the axles on to center it as much, I guess...

The bigger hassle is getting the pivot pin adjusted when there's only one nut on it, but I don't see that going away no matter what I do. Now I know why the DA45 pivot pins adjust the way they do. I'd hate to have to try and screw the ball in/out without something for a wrench to grab onto. Hate to go grab the things with pliers...

So long as I put the right retainer below the bottom cushion could I put conics down there? I put some blue barrels on it (not too tight), and the feel of the action still seems a fair bit stiff. I probably want to oil the pivot pin ball/socket as well. Something like 3-In-1 should do the job?
__________________
*~[
Grand Poobah
Stats Geek
Poobah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #20
Doc Sk8
Yankee Catfish
 
Doc Sk8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Big hill on Mars
Posts: 12,139
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poobah View Post
To be perfectly honest, I'm not seeing the prices I'd likely pay to convert these to reverse kingpins to be money well spent. For the same $60ish bucks I could convert and old SA45 plate to DA45 and get all that and more.

True that... But i though the purpose of this was resurrecting a Super D??

The biggest problem with the current set-up isn't so much the adjustment and tweaking of them (once I figured it out) it's really just the "putting the plate back together after it's mounted." Generally only needs to be done once or twice, so that's no big deal. And given that it's got the Snyder measuring tool's notch on the plate, I won't be needing the axles on to center it as much, I guess...

Assuming you want the axles where the Snyder tool thinks they should go..

The bigger hassle is getting the pivot pin adjusted when there's only one nut on it, but I don't see that going away no matter what I do.

There SHOULD be 2 flat spots right below the ball.. 1/8 inch ignition wrench works great..

Now I know why the DA45 pivot pins adjust the way they do. I'd hate to have to try and screw the ball in/out without something for a wrench to grab onto. Hate to go grab the things with pliers..

So convert to the DA45 Pivot. Snyder did decades ago. Easier to adjust and tougher to not break as easily..

So long as I put the right retainer below the bottom cushion could I put conics down there?

Or a small flat washer..

I put some blue barrels on it (not too tight), and the feel of the action still seems a fair bit stiff. I probably want to oil the pivot pin ball/socket as well. Something like 3-In-1 should do the job?
I grease mine. Light oil will need to be tended to frequently..
__________________
"The difference between good skates and great skates comes from knowing where to get the numbers."
Doc Sk8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.