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Ask DocSk8 (Expert Indoor Skate Building Advice) This forum is different then the other SkateLog forums in that it is not a discussion forum, but rather a place you can ask skate building expert Fred "DocSk8" Benjamin about building and repairing indoor speed, derby, and jamskate quad roller skates. Please start a new thread for each new question.

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Old September 15th, 2013, 11:43 PM   #1
gotsk8s
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Default Lock nut tightening up during the skate....

First the set up: (don`t need boot info), Advantage, Scotts SE/Fafnirs.
This has never happened with this skate, ever, BUT I have been gradually loosening my action some but its only happening on one wheel and its a new locknut that the nylock grips really well. The wheel in question is the front right wheel on the right skate. Last night that baby tightened up twice to where the wheel wouldn`t spin but 1/2 revolution. I`ll put another nylock nut on there but this one has really good grip and always has. Do you think me loosening the action up to where I`m putting alot of force on that wheel, which I know I`m doing, during some serious fast shuffle skates could be causing that particular nut to rotate forward in the clockwise direction? None of the other ones on the other side of the skate were loosening, just that 1 tightening.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 02:18 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotsk8s View Post
First the set up: (don`t need boot info), Advantage, Scotts SE/Fafnirs.
This has never happened with this skate, ever, BUT I have been gradually loosening my action some but its only happening on one wheel and its a new locknut that the nylock grips really well. The wheel in question is the front right wheel on the right skate. Last night that baby tightened up twice to where the wheel wouldn`t spin but 1/2 revolution. I`ll put another nylock nut on there but this one has really good grip and always has. Do you think me loosening the action up to where I`m putting alot of force on that wheel, which I know I`m doing, during some serious fast shuffle skates could be causing that particular nut to rotate forward in the clockwise direction? None of the other ones on the other side of the skate were loosening, just that 1 tightening.

Possibly. Swap the wheels and bearings side to side and see if it's the corner (axle) or the wheel / bearing assembly. If the problem does not move, swap the trucks end for end and see what happens. I have run into Snyder axles that are not as "fat" as they should be so the Nyloc may not be holding as well as you think it is ..
You may have started loading the nut to the point it won't hold. However, I would think that you would really need to pound the bearings to get to that level.. As in lock them up momentarily. Remember, deep groove ball bearings are not really designed or intended to take severe side loads.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #3
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If I may, do you use spacers ? I never saw a locknut do that, but in your case, maybe a spacer could help. It has to be precisely the good size. It won't prevent the lock nut to tighten, but with a good sized spacer, bearings will not get deformed, and your wheel should keep a good spin.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 12:46 PM   #4
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Is it possible that the axle has slipped a bit in the truck housing and pulled tight rather than the nut spinning?

Perhaps put a mark on the nut and see if it actually moves.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #5
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I`m leaning to the excessive side loading of that particular wheel because since I`ve gone to loosening my action I am now skating different, harder than I`ve ever skated before and that particular wheel/location is getting some serious side load excessiveness lol. So with that being said I guess if I continue skating this way, which I plan on NOT stopping lol I`ll just have to periodically check the nyloks during the sessions, something I can live with I guess Thanks Doc and everyone else.

Out of curiosity though, how would a spacer help when the wheel has an aluminum hub and the bearing seated all the way?
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Old September 16th, 2013, 06:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotsk8s View Post
Out of curiosity though, how would a spacer help when the wheel has an aluminum hub and the bearing seated all the way?

IF the spacer is optimally sized so as to keep the balls centered in the races of both bearings (NOT easy to do, contrary to things others have posted elsewhere) you can torque the nut down against the spacer. In fact you could use the tiny 3/8" nuts from loose ball axles since the self locking feature is no longer necessary.

In your situation, it might be beneficial..
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Old September 16th, 2013, 06:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cass38a View Post
Is it possible that the axle has slipped a bit in the truck housing and pulled tight rather than the nut spinning?

Perhaps put a mark on the nut and see if it actually moves.
This sounds right.

When your right foot push stroke is at peak force, the front inside wheel is pushing the inside axle nut axle inward as if it wants to pull the axle right out through the the truck to the left. If truck is not gripping tightly enough on axle, then it slides inward a bit, also pulling the right side axle nut inward just enough to pinch the balls of the right wheel's outer bearing and make the bearing's inner race spin some number of revolutions on the axle.

When stroke force ends, the spinning stops, but each stroke cycle spins the inner race some and friction then shifts the nut a bit tighter until the bearing finally gets pinched so much it stays frozen by the incremental tightening. Heat can also build up if this process is gradual, versus sudden, which can also weaken the nylon's grip.

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Old September 16th, 2013, 07:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
This sounds right.

When your right foot push stroke is at peak force, the front inside wheel is pushing the inside axle nut axle inward as if it wants to pull the axle right out through the the truck to the left. If truck is not gripping tightly enough on axle, then it slides inward a bit, also pulling the right side axle nut inward just enough to pinch the balls of the right wheel's outer bearing and make the bearing's inner race spin some number of revolutions on the axle.

When stroke force ends, the spinning stops, but each stroke cycle spins the inner race some and friction then shifts the nut a bit tighter until the bearing finally gets pinched so much it stays frozen by the incremental tightening. Heat can also build up if this process is gradual, versus sudden, which can also weaken the nylon's grip.

-Armadillo
This sounds wrong because the nut on the opposing wheel would have to be loose and that was not the case, either time. The wheel never got so tight that it completely quit spinning, it got close but not that close.
I will just try the spacer thing on that wheel, provided I can get one the correct size.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 08:27 PM   #9
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A spacer will solve the problem either way. I still think it would be good idea to try swapping the trucks around and see.

It won't hurt to get a magic marker and put a dot on the nut at the closest point to the floor and confirm that the nut is actually moving while you source a spacer.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #10
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Adding speed washers between the lock nut and bearing will keep the nut from moving, thin is in

I would want a "lock washer" on if I wasn't using a nyloc nut, even torqued at 35lbs, thinking about a bicycle wheel (F) before quick release, no lock washer(or serrated nut), loose wheel.

Thinking about the carnage in this case if they had been nylon nut's
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Old September 17th, 2013, 01:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotsk8s View Post
Out of curiosity though, how would a spacer help when the wheel has an aluminum hub and the bearing seated all the way?
This question make me think that you may not be fully aware of what actually happen inside your wheel while you skate.

First of all, the inside rings of your bearings are not supposed to move at all, That include, not rotate at all around your axle, as it may damage the axle and the inner ring, and not move at all along the axle, as this may damage the bearing.

There are mainly 2 places where your bearing is submitted to efforts when you tighten it : from the outside of the wheel, on the inner ring, lock nut tighten the bearings to the inside of the wheel. From the inside of the wheel, on the outer ring, the hub is resisting the movement. These 2 forces cause the bearings to move in a way it's not made for, and if you tighten it to much between these 2 points, it stops turning. And this is bad.
Having a precisely cut spacer will make tightening the lock nut safe, since the force will not deform the bearings, but just go through the spacer and the 2 inner rings right to the hanger.

Coming back to my first point, actually, nothing is supposed to move except for the bearing's insides. The wheel shall not move around the bearings, the bearings shall not move around the axle. Thus, the bearing inner ring shall not be able to rotate the lock nut, since it's not supposed to move at all itself.

Sorry if i'm not very understandable, being french with a very limited english, It's hard to deliver technical explanations. (believe me, i'm trying my best)
Here is a good video about spacers anyway :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPVBRc4-nTQ

Edit : One more thing :
If your bearings are not correctly lubrificated (to much sticky grease), the inner ring would be more likely to turn around the axle (with very fast bearings, inner ring won't move when spinning wheels, even without any locknut, since the bearing inside movement will create less friction than the inner ring turning around the axle) , as a simple rule, on a wheel without spacer, I always tighten the lock nut to the precise point where the inner ring does not move at all when I spin the wheel, but not any much, since after this point, it will deform the bearing.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 04:27 PM   #12
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The axle could also be loose. This actually happens quite frequently in skateboards when spacers are not used because of the hard wheels and hard concrete surfaces. That combined with dropping the board. Even though there is considerably more material to hold the axle in a skateboards truck, it still happens.

A 7mm axle also has less surface area for the truck to grab onto, so eventually over time that same right foot with the same truck being beaten on will wear and slip. 8mm is no exception. It can and will do the same thing given enough abuse, so im not dogging on 7's lol.

Quads create a hammering on axles, and id bet the axle has some slip to it. If you want to test this simply swap left and right front trucks to keep the inertial loading the same. If the problem transfers to the left foot you know its the axle.

Everyone has their different opinions on spacers, but with a correctly set up spacer and a tightened nut the axle has less stress against it and is strengthened by the thickness of the bearings inner races, and the thickness of the spacer. A spacer to match the thickness of the inner race's face is ideal. Less than that is almost a waste of time, since the spacer would be weaker than the bearings and deformation would be more probable.

7-8mm id 12mm od spacer cut to bearing seat width.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #13
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A question. Do you put the axle nuts on with the flat side to the bearing or the ring shaped side to the bearing? With the flat side in any contact with the bearing shield from lateral wheel movement or dust and grit buildup will exert force on the nut and make it gradually turn. That's why you sometimes see a nut and wheel on the left hand side of a boot come off. If you put the ring shaped side of the nut against the bearing movement of the nut cannot occur because the ring on the nut is the same size as the inner ring of the bearing. It is then physically impossible for the rotating bearing shield to contact the nut and make it move.



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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JorisKB View Post
This question make me think that you may not be fully aware of what actually happen inside your wheel while you skate.
.
I`m aware, I just don`t always think lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort
The axle could also be loose.
But if the axle is loose causing that 1 wheel to be tight wouldn`t the other one be loose? Not the case here, its the side load effect I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RS Dave
A question. Do you put the axle nuts on with the flat side to the bearing or the ring shaped side to the bearing? With the flat side in any contact with the bearing shield ...
Running Fafnirs without shields
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Old September 18th, 2013, 03:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
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I`m aware, I just don`t always think lol

But if the axle is loose causing that 1 wheel to be tight wouldn`t the other one be loose? Not the case here, its the side load effect I think.

Running Fafnirs without shields
If you tighten the nuts to the point of minimal slop on each side then a minuscule movement of the axle can cause it to bind. I seriously doubt that the nut is spinning, seems like the bearing would really have to be garbage to have that affect.

A way to check the axle, would be with some finger nail polish, paint the axle where it meets the trucks face on both sides, let it dry, put nuts on each axle end to protect them and tap on each end of the axle with a small wrench or screw driver etc. If its the axle you'll see the polish develop a crack.

Or check the axle nut by dotting the top of it(closest to the skate boot) then go for a roll and see if its moved any. If the inner race is spinning and causing this problem i would also expect to see a little more of a polished look on your axle where that bearing sits compared to the inner bearing.

Why? shields keep dirt out, and keep the raceway finish in tact not to mention the lube in the raceways.. A skating rink is not a "clean room". Everyone argues the friction a shield adds. A bad one, maybe but still so insignificant, a properly working one adds almost nothing.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post

Why? shields keep dirt out, and keep the raceway finish in tact not to mention the lube in the raceways.. A skating rink is not a "clean room". Everyone argues the friction a shield adds. A bad one, maybe but still so insignificant, a properly working one adds almost nothing.
Why is simple... If you were more knowledgeable about Fafnir sk8 bearings (especially the 8 balls) you would know that many many 37K series (no shield) bearings were sold to sk8rs over the years. Past that, Many of the 37KDs (1 shield) had the shields damaged over the years and were lost or removed. Fafnirs are a lot more immune to damage from dirt (and other crap) intrusion than most of the current crop of bearings out there.. I have 30 year old Fafnirs that were essentially rusted solid. Freed 'em up, cleaned and lubed them and they are more than satisfactory for session..

Let's clarify something. Shields do not cause ANY friction on the bearing unless they are caved in.. Then they rub the cage / crown that locates the balls.

Seals on the other hand may introduce a slight amount of drag if the inner seal lip is in a groove (Labyrinth style). Step seals, on the other hand have negligible drag.

Shields and seals are different critters. Do not mix up the terminology.

Please, enough discussion for now. Let's let the OP do the tests he feels will tell him what he needs to know and let him report the results. Then if more discussion is warranted, we can do so.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 06:53 PM   #17
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Yup.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 10:44 PM   #18
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Okay, I did some investigating. I found the axle to be a little loose. Just enough to make the outboard wheel snug and not enough for the inboard wheel to be loose. I pulled the axle thinking I had a longer one so I could use speed cones but I didn`t. So, I opted to use a spare Super DeLuxe truck. Hopefully soon I`ll just get a complete set of replacements with Ti axles.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 11:14 PM   #19
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I bet Wes can get you fixed right up! Are ya going to move to 8mm since you started to waller out the 7mm axle on that truck or just press in a new 7 slathered with some strong loctite?
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 12:28 AM   #20
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lol no, I ain`t going to 8mm on these. I have some SG hardened axles that the truck will punching out for. I`ll prolly pony up for some new ones eventually.
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