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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates.

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Old April 20th, 2012, 10:26 PM   #21
gotsk8s
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As for the bearings, get ya some 7mm`s, you`ll be happier with their performance over the 8`s mainly because the 7 fit their axles better than the 8`s fit theirs, not to mention better quality choices in the 7`s.
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Old April 20th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Yogi Bear View Post
After I typed that about 7mm axles, I looked up the Proline and see it can be ordered with 8mm axle, but thanks for the heads up.

I am interested in the Snyder's too, and I like that a couple of people have suggested them. So, correct me if I am wrong, but are you guys suggesting that the Snyder Advantage has better turning motion without sacrificing stability. I ask because I have only been skating about 9 months, but my speed skating is improving rapidly. I can't shuffle yet, but wouldn't mind learning at some point.
Yes, the Advantage has a great turning motion and it only took me slight adjustments to get them the way I like them. I use mine both for racing, as well as session skating, shuffle skating. It's a great all around frame at a good price. Only difference I see is the trucks and the slight degree difference, but it feels the same to me as a Proline.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 11:30 PM   #23
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If you are serious you will make the jump to 7mm regardless of cost.

The reason for this is ALL of the top skaters will be using 7mm they will all have a swag of wheels with 7mm bearings and as a rule they are happy to share them at training sessions etc so you can work out what works for you. If you go with 8mm you will lose this benefit.

At the national titles in 2011 I lent a set of wheels to a competitor as when we arrived at the venue his wheels would not hook up so he had access to my second best ones, then beat me

Iif you go 8mm now then decide you don't like your plate and need to change again you will find that all the top stuff is 7mm only and you will find it even harder to make the change as you will now have even more 8mm gear that may never be used again.
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Old April 21st, 2012, 11:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Yogi Bear View Post
After I typed that about 7mm axles, I looked up the Proline and see it can be ordered with 8mm axle, but thanks for the heads up.

I am interested in the Snyder's too, and I like that a couple of people have suggested them. So, correct me if I am wrong, but are you guys suggesting that the Snyder Advantage has better turning motion without sacrificing stability. I ask because I have only been skating about 9 months, but my speed skating is improving rapidly. I can't shuffle yet, but wouldn't mind learning at some point.
The Advantage and the DA45 family of highly turn responsive plates are not design optimized for speed skating. They are less stable at speed. Some people use the term twitchy. They are designed to give the maximum amount of instant turning with the minimum amount of plate lean and effort.

This is NOT the design concept you want for getting the best speed skating performance from your skates. You want a design that turns LESS with more plate lean and a bit more foot pressure. You do not want any wiggles on the track you roll at speed. A less turn responsive speed plate design will allow you to more easily hold a more stable track line, and lose less energy. It will also allow you to push out to a leg lower and wider point with your stroke.

-Armadillo
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Old April 22nd, 2012, 01:22 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
The Advantage and the DA45 family of highly turn responsive plates are not design optimized for speed skating. They are less stable at speed. Some people use the term twitchy. They are designed to give the maximum amount of instant turning with the minimum amount of plate lean and effort.

This is NOT the design concept you want for getting the best speed skating performance from your skates. You want a design that turns LESS with more plate lean and a bit more foot pressure. You do not want any wiggles on the track you roll at speed. A less turn responsive speed plate design will allow you to more easily hold a more stable track line, and lose less energy. It will also allow you to push out to a leg lower and wider point with your stroke.

-Armadillo
I disagree with you assessment of the Advantage. I raced on quads "back in the day," on a Proline and had National medals. I decided to race Quads again last year. When I asked the person building my skates, dvw, what can I get, similar to a Proline, at a lower cost, but similar to a Proline, the answer was an Advantage. I won a National title on these plates last year (Classic 2-man relay). Like everything else in skating, and especially when talking about equipment, it is subjective and all about what works for any particular individual. But to flat out say that the Advantage is not good for speed??? You are wrong. It's a great plate for indoor speed. How about you come to Indoor Nationals in Lincoln this year and we put your theories to a test.... Again, I disagree with your opinion. But it's that, your opinion.
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Old April 29th, 2012, 08:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Yogi Bear View Post

I was leaning toward the Avenger before, but now that I am in speed, I get mixed reviews on weather I should get it for speed. Every bit of research I do tends to show that a plate like the Proline or something like it would be optimal. I guess I willl have to skate the plastics until I gather the cash for the right purchase.
Hey Yogi, the SG Avenger DA45 plates were designed as a Speed/Race chasis, not a Derby plate per say, although many Derby players feel comfortable and perform well skating that plate. A "Speed" plate mostly due to the degree angle of the kingpin (45*) and the really light weight of the entire chasis, as opposed to 10*-17* angle kingpin on many other plate designs. These more standard kingpin angles allow a skater to keep better balance and stability, thus I think better for Derby (especially Blockers and Pivots). Though I know a lot of Jammers who prefer the agility and sharpness that a 45* angle kingpin is characteristic of. I think you may want to reconsider the Avenger plate. It's honestly and literally the most responsive plate I've ever Raced. I was on a PowerDyne Reactor (which I think is one of the best Speed plates made), but my Avenger is much more responsive; it's lighter, and it's solid, just like the Reactor plate.

Just my 10 cents worth

Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
The Advantage and the DA45 family of highly turn responsive plates are not design optimized for speed skating. They are less stable at speed. Some people use the term twitchy. They are designed to give the maximum amount of instant turning with the minimum amount of plate lean and effort.

This is NOT the design concept you want for getting the best speed skating performance from your skates.
... I must agree with JandKLarsen.
And here's something -You can control your speed stability by putting better emphasis on choosing the proper 'Bushing' durometer configurations. Not enough Quad SPeed skaters (or Derby or Artistic or others) put enough emphasis on what type of set-up they have in regards to what bushings lay over their Kingpin. 45* angled KP's are NOT 'unstable' as some is stating, they just provide a much sharper and responsive turn-ability. Now if you're Speed Skating and racing straight-away's or large oval track configurations, then you aren't worried about your cross overs or flex turns as much as if you were racing on standard rink floor specs. In any case, you can help control your stability by choosing the proper durometer rating in regards to your Bushings set-up. I use a higher duro rating Bushing at the base of the KP and a lower duro rated Bushing at the top. Depending on where I'm skating and what type of track, I'll go from a full barrel Bushing /Conical Bushing configuration, to a total full Barrel Bushing set-up (top and bottom) and I may even increase the Duro rating of the Bushings... it all depends, but it works, and it works well(for me at least). I currently race and I win races, period. My Avenger plate, with 45* KP (speaking from direct experience) is MORE responsive than my Reactors, and is extremely stable at Speed!...just as stable as the Reactor plates that I left for my Avenger plates.

So Yogi, There's always a personal preference factor(and that's always OK), but considering the technicality of it all, I would reconsider the Avenger as a Speed plate. That's what it was made for. Don't get me wrong; there's many other good plates out there as well
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Old April 29th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Hey Yogi, the SG Avenger DA45 plates were designed as a Speed/Race chasis, not a Derby plate per say, although many Derby players feel comfortable and perform well skating that plate.
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
A "Speed" plate mostly due to the degree angle of the kingpin (45*) and the really light weight of the entire chasis, as opposed to 10*-17* angle kingpin on many other plate designs. These more standard kingpin angles allow a skater to keep better balance and stability, thus I think better for Derby (especially Blockers and Pivots). Though I know a lot of Jammers who prefer the agility and sharpness that a 45* angle kingpin is characteristic of. I think you may want to reconsider the Avenger plate.
There are no Sure Grip plates with 45 degree kingpins - Zero, NaDa.

The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
It's honestly and literally the most responsive plate I've ever Raced. I was on a PowerDyne Reactor (which I think is one of the best Speed plates made), but my Avenger is much more responsive; it's lighter, and it's solid, just like the Reactor plate.

Just my 10 cents worth
Since when did high levels of turn response become a prerequisite for optimum speed plate performance and skater speed. Most serious speed skaters will disagree with this assertion, including me. I have explained this to death in other threads. Suffice it to say that a strong and full horizontal extension power stroke works more effectively on a less turn responsive plate, one where more plate tilt gives less plate turn.

The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Also...

... I must agree with JandKLarsen.
And here's something -You can control your speed stability by putting better emphasis on choosing the proper 'Bushing' durometer configurations. Not enough Quad SPeed skaters (or Derby or Artistic or others) put enough emphasis on what type of set-up they have in regards to what bushings lay over their Kingpin. 45* angled KP's are NOT 'unstable' as some is stating, they just provide a much sharper and responsive turn-ability. Now if you're Speed Skating and racing straight-away's or large oval track configurations, then you aren't worried about your cross overs or flex turns as much as if you were racing on standard rink floor specs. In any case, you can help control your stability by choosing the proper durometer rating in regards to your Bushings set-up. I use a higher duro rating Bushing at the base of the KP and a lower duro rated Bushing at the top. Depending on where I'm skating and what type of track, I'll go from a full barrel Bushing /Conical Bushing configuration, to a total full Barrel Bushing set-up (top and bottom) and I may even increase the Duro rating of the Bushings... it all depends, but it works, and it works well(for me at least). I currently race and I win races, period. My Avenger plate, with 45* KP (speaking from direct experience) is MORE responsive than my Reactors, and is extremely stable at Speed!...just as stable as the Reactor plates that I left for my Avenger plates.
By definition, stability at speed means that slight errors in placement of the focus of weight on the skate, that tend to turn the plate away from the desired rolling line, will only trigger a limited amount of errant turn deviation from the desired track.

However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
So Yogi, There's always a personal preference factor(and that's always OK), but considering the technicality of it all, I would reconsider the Avenger as a Speed plate. That's what it was made for. Don't get me wrong; there's many other good plates out there as well
When I first rolled on a 30 degree kingpin plates with a high level of turn response, I immediately perceived my skating performance and speed to have improved significantly. Then I realized it was more like my body dynamics had changed as I adapted to the more curvy shape of strokes I could now do.

It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun.

Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't.

I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
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Old April 29th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by JandKLarson View Post
I disagree with you assessment of the Advantage. I raced on quads "back in the day," on a Proline and had National medals. I decided to race Quads again last year. When I asked the person building my skates, dvw, what can I get, similar to a Proline, at a lower cost, but similar to a Proline, the answer was an Advantage. I won a National title on these plates last year (Classic 2-man relay). Like everything else in skating, and especially when talking about equipment, it is subjective and all about what works for any particular individual. But to flat out say that the Advantage is not good for speed??? You are wrong. It's a great plate for indoor speed. How about you come to Indoor Nationals in Lincoln this year and we put your theories to a test.... Again, I disagree with your opinion. But it's that, your opinion.
It is not really my theory that matters. You may also might find that I can build you a plate that will out perform your Avengers at this years Nationals. In the end, it is what works to give you the best race time.

As a nationally ranked skater you know the importance of skating low and having a wide stroke that allows feet to reach to the max. horizontally.

Ergonomically, the shallower action speed plate designs will have an advantage, since your ankle can lean further without turning the skate inward as much, which tends to abbreviate the full thrust of the power stroke. If you are still able to get what you feel is your stroke's full power down with Avenger plates, then great, but I suspect you would still be able to go faster with a shallower action plate design.

Until you freshly compare a fully optimized speed plate geometry with your current Avenger setup, you can't necessarily assume that the Avengers are the best for you. It is possible, but a fair comparison might be worth the effort.

What size boot/shoe are you?

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Old April 29th, 2012, 07:33 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
It is not really my theory that matters. You may also might find that I can build you a plate that will out perform your Avengers at this years Nationals. In the end, it is what works to give you the best race time.

As a nationally ranked skater you know the importance of skating low and having a wide stroke that allows feet to reach to the max. horizontally.

Ergonomically, the shallower action speed plate designs will have an advantage, since your ankle can lean further without turning the skate inward as much, which tends to abbreviate the full thrust of the power stroke. If you are still able to get what you feel is your stroke's full power down with Avenger plates, then great, but I suspect you would still be able to go faster with a shallower action plate design.

Until you freshly compare a fully optimized speed plate geometry with your current Avenger setup, you can't necessarily assume that the Avengers are the best for you. It is possible, but a fair comparison might be worth the effort.

What size boot/shoe are you?

-Armadillo
Dillo - I skate on a Snyder Advantage NOT a Sure Grip Avenger. The Snyder Advantage is NOT a DA45 plate. The degree angle on the Snyder Advantage is not much different than a Proline (if I remember correctly, a Proline is 10 degrees, the Synder Advantage is 15 or the other way around; there is a 5 degree difference though).
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Old April 29th, 2012, 08:16 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.



There are no Sure Grip plates with 45 degree kingpins - Zero, NaDa.

The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree.




Since when did high levels of turn response become a prerequisite for optimum speed plate performance and skater speed. Most serious speed skaters will disagree with this assertion, including me. I have explained this to death in other threads. Suffice it to say that a strong and full horizontal extension power stroke works more effectively on a less turn responsive plate, one where more plate tilt gives less plate turn.

The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees)



By definition, stability at speed means that slight errors in placement of the focus of weight on the skate, that tend to turn the plate away from the desired rolling line, will only trigger a limited amount of errant turn deviation from the desired track.

However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear.


SwisherTONE - and you're absolutely correct about this, thus is why I always stress paying more attention to what bushings are over your pins. Most people want to lay bushings over their Kingpins because they 'match' or they 'look pretty' (and aesthetics are fine... I love my skate gear to look hot!!) but skaters (competitive skaters) don't put enough technical emphasis on their bushing set up. It makes all the difference! Most people are riding 85A or lower duro ratings on their kingpin... there are many harder rated bushings to choose from, so that you can configure what is going to balance out your set-up and stabilize your skating on your particular build. I stress this with all the people I skate with / train, and they've all said it's made a huge difference.



When I first rolled on a 30 degree kingpin plates with a high level of turn response, I immediately perceived my skating performance and speed to have improved significantly. Then I realized it was more like my body dynamics had changed as I adapted to the more curvy shape of strokes I could now do.

It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun.

Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't.

I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
We can agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. Everything about the Avenger mimics a Speed Plate to me (it's design, it's weight, etc). Ever minor part of my indoor build and the adjustments I make to it (my bushing configuration, etc.) makes noticeable difference in the ways I'm hoping it will,when I making those adjustments. I'm not a NEWB. I've got over 2 decades under me in competitive speed skating/racing, so I think 'physical experience' and 'results' from such, will always trump what theoretical physics presumes to know or dictate.


By the way, I privately coach and train Derby players, and I'm very involved with my fiancee's team as a whole(most of you have heard me state this previously) and I 'tech' for her personally(and she's one of their most noted Jammers), and I've seen them ( the team) perform better (especially blockers/pivots) on a wider based plates (Like Artistic plates - i.e. SG Century plates, etc) with a lower degree KP (10*-17*) depending on the plate, and using a conical bushing set up with lower rated duro, than on plates like an Avenger or a Reactor or a Snyder.
Just sayin. I think it all comes down to; more than anything, to the personal preference of each skater. And that's really where all the difference lies. IMO

Much respect to ya 'dillo
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Old April 30th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #31
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a proline has a 5 degree truck angle
a snyder advantage has a 15 degree truck angle and an offset toe stop!
and thats the truth!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old April 30th, 2012, 09:22 AM   #32
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Dillo - I skate on a Snyder Advantage NOT a Sure Grip Avenger. The Snyder Advantage is NOT a DA45 plate. The degree angle on the Snyder Advantage is not much different than a Proline (if I remember correctly, a Proline is 10 degrees, the Synder Advantage is 15 or the other way around; there is a 5 degree difference though).

Sorry, my bad. That makes a whole lot more sense now.
I was having a hard time picturing you trying to compete effectively at a national level on a steep action DA45 plate. The Advantage has a much more typical and efficient speed plate geometry with a 15 degree kingpin angle, that is very similar to the 1/2 pound lighter Laser Slider skates I use for racing. I find that for me, the more rare 15 degree kingpin (55-60 degree action angle) plate geometry is the sweet spot for optimum speed plate performance.

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Old April 30th, 2012, 11:12 AM   #33
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We can agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. Everything about the Avenger mimics a Speed Plate to me (it's design, it's weight, etc). Ever minor part of my indoor build and the adjustments I make to it (my bushing configuration, etc.) makes noticeable difference in the ways I'm hoping it will,when I making those adjustments. I'm not a NEWB. I've got over 2 decades under me in competitive speed skating/racing, so I think 'physical experience' and 'results' from such, will always trump what theoretical physics presumes to know or dictate.


By the way, I privately coach and train Derby players, and I'm very involved with my fiancee's team as a whole(most of you have heard me state this previously) and I 'tech' for her personally(and she's one of their most noted Jammers), and I've seen them ( the team) perform better (especially blockers/pivots) on a wider based plates (Like Artistic plates - i.e. SG Century plates, etc) with a lower degree KP (10*-17*) depending on the plate, and using a conical bushing set up with lower rated duro, than on plates like an Avenger or a Reactor or a Snyder.
Just sayin. I think it all comes down to; more than anything, to the personal preference of each skater. And that's really where all the difference lies. IMO

Much respect to ya 'dillo
swish, dillo will run u in circles and his rant sounds almost like yours, so watch out.....dillo can be a challenge to deal with.....
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Old April 30th, 2012, 11:35 AM   #34
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swish, dillo will run u in circles and his rant sounds almost like yours, so watch out.....dillo can be a challenge to deal with.....
I don't think 'dillo is trying to challenge anyone, I think he is just pointing out that Avenger plates were actually designed buy an SLF member, with the help () of another very respected SLF member.
They also listened to us as well!=Bonus!!
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Old April 30th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #35
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didnt say he was challenging anyone, i said he was challenging to deal with, difference!
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Old April 30th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #36
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Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.


-Armadillo
I'm glad you added "IMO" in there 'Dillo

Sure-Grip actually say that the plate (Avenger) is aimed at "speed and derby" - so it isn't being marketed purely as a derby plate.

I'm still not set on what plate I'm going to get myself as I do speed and session on my skates and don't really want to switch between skates during an evening (yes... I, and many others I know, speed skate on "ridiculous-looking" hard shell inline hockey boots - both converted to quads and not!) when I get my new boots.

Sure-Grip PDF on the Avenger.
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Old April 30th, 2012, 05:22 PM   #37
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Sure-Grip actually say that the plate (Avenger) is aimed at "speed and derby" - so it isn't being marketed purely as a derby plate.
Thas right Ely, and even more so, the plates initial design idea was based off of the Magnum (a DA45 plate) which was 100% designed and marketed as a Speed Plate.

>>>>>

Somebody answer me this( I know the answer already... just entertain me, please)...

in lay terms: the "short forward mount" is something that is used in speed skating, or was devised and utilized based out of the Speed Skating Discipline, correct or not?
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Old April 30th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Thas right Ely, and even more so, the plates initial design idea was based off of the Magnum (a DA45 plate) which was 100% designed and marketed as a Speed Plate.
You could say any newer DA45 plate is "based off" the design of any earlier model 45 degree action plate, since it only takes a 30 degree kingpin angle to produce an ~45 degree action. Then just add a set of DA trucks.

As for the Avenger being based on the Magnum, I am really not seeing this, and if it was true, it would be best kept quiet.

Yes, both come in white. Yes, both available in Mag. Yes, DA45 geometry for both (if Magnum gets the DA truck kit). Yes, both use absurd 3/8-20 BSF plate hole thread instead of 3//8-24. However, there are far more things very dissimilar, besides the SA-DA confusion, between the two different generation plates.

Magnum has a much more sculpted plate shape giving a bigger and more ergonomic foot platform. Avenger is much trimmer and very sharply angled & cornered.

Std. White Magnum used a crappy, fixed length, no-ball pivot, SA truck design with poorly finished cast trucks that, despite being magnesium, are not really very light. Avenger uses the slimmed down version of the original SG DA45 total boat anchor truck, with at least an adj. ball pivot, but it is still too heavy IMO.

Magnum used squishy pivot cups & no ball truck, which thoroughly chokes the truck action, while Avenger has the decent Delrin pivot cups, but then mates it up with the SG too-small pivot ball and matching too-small-to-fit-a-wrench-around integral hex.

Magnum placed the toe stop socket very close to the front axle - good for forward mounts. Avenger sticks the stop out further. True speed plated ignore toe stops.

So, to summarize, if the Magnum was "100% designed and marketed as a Speed Plate,' then aside from its mag material low weight, I really can't see where it would be considered much of a success in that category. If it was such a success, there would be heck of a lot more NTS models floating around these days, since serious speed skaters would more typically have avoided the toe stop version when Magnums were "succeeding" in the marketplace. SO where are all the NTS Magnums hiding?

If the Avenger plate design stands on the shoulders of the Magnum for its inspiration, then inspiration better mean seeing the shortcomings of a prior design and eliminating them for the next generation, because only in that role could the Magnum be much of an inspiration for designing a serious speed plate, which, IMO, the Avenger is clearly not.

-Armadillo
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Old May 1st, 2012, 12:33 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
You could say any newer DA45 plate is "based off" the design of any earlier model 45 degree action plate, since it only takes a 30 degree kingpin angle to produce an ~45 degree action. Then just add a set of DA trucks.

As for the Avenger being based on the Magnum, I am really not seeing this, and if it was true, it would be best kept quiet.


-Armadillo
FROM THE SURE GRIP AVENGER Specs Sheet: (a quote verbatim) -

"The Avenger plate concept was derived from the 45 degree Magnum and 45 degree Invader skate plates of the late 70’s early 80’s. Over the last few years a lot of emphasis has been placed on strong light weight products for speed and derby. In the 80’s we developed the single action Magnum speed plate for this purpose, produced in both aluminum and magnesium, this plate was very light and very strong.
Recently we have seen a greater awareness for this style plate; we saw it fitting to redesign it using modern technology and what we came up with was the Avenger
"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Magnum placed the toe stop socket very close to the front axle - good for forward mounts. Avenger sticks the stop out further.

Again, a quote, verbatim-

"Shortened front end: For those who want to get aggressive with their short forward mounts (Essentially a Speed Mount) can now do so with plenty of room to spare so the plate will not hang over the front of your boot. The Avenger is optimized for the short forward set up but a standard mount is still possible"

But Sure Grip may be wrong. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
If the Avenger plate design stands on the shoulders of the Magnum for its inspiration, then inspiration better mean seeing the shortcomings of a prior design and eliminating them for the next generation, because only in that role could the Magnum be much of an inspiration for designing a serious speed plate, which, IMO, the Avenger is clearly not.

Well, I'm a serious speed skater (over two decades competitively). I've skated SG Century's, Magnums, PD Reactors, Paioli plates, all competitively. All of them were good, all of them. Most recently, on the PD Reactor. I "Test Drove" an Avenger plate set up for a week before I decided to switch. I left the Reactor and I win Races on my Avenger 'speed plate'. I don't know what else to say to prove it? Sure Grip says it, I skate one successfully.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Just a quick reality check
The Magnum is an S/A45, not a D/A 45, and the trucks(to make it a D/A45 from an S/A45) cobbled into the magnum are arbitrary, so if the avenger is a coin flip of the magnum... that's two strikes.

The first strike is a pressed KP
THe Avenger is not a "new age Magnum". It's not a 'coin flip' of that plate (which was a preettty darn good plate anyway) But it's based off of the initial Magnum Speed plate conncept and technologically refined to modern specs and ideas of what a fast/light weight plate should be..... and People make assumptions who have never mounted one and raced one... I have. Buy one, mount one, race one, and THEN make a true experienced comment. Makes sense to me. And a pressed in Kingpin??? BIG EFFIN DEAL... it's past proven technology. Just because one or three have semi-failed, doesn't mean isht. Out of how many hundreds sold?? Gimme a break.



BTW, on another note: 'Dilla! Me and my Derby-sexy might be headin to Chi-town ( I have some business to handle there)... you gonna hang out with, and show us the good places to skate?

We wanna hit some really cool outdoor places (as well as Rinks) and I know that Chicago is one of the best places to skate outdoors !!
.
.
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Old May 1st, 2012, 12:42 AM   #40
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Just a quick reality check
The Magnum is an S/A45, not a D/A 45, and the trucks(to make it a D/A45 from an S/A45) cobbled into the magnum are arbitrary, so if the avenger is a coin flip of the magnum... that's two strikes.

The first strike is a pressed KP
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