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Quad Speed Discussions about speed skating in quad roller skates.

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Old April 19th, 2012, 05:06 PM   #1
Yogi Bear
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Default Plates for Speed?

Hi all,

I wanted to get some feedback from experienced skaters about the best plates currently available for speedskating. My main question has to do with the degree angle of the truck and what is best for speed.

It has been suggested to me that there is more smoothness in the corner and better, more consistent power on the lower angle (10 degree) of the traditional steel plates. Is this true or will a plate such as the Avenger do well for a speed skater like myself?
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Old April 19th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #2
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Yogi, welcome to the SkateLogForum! -- and the quad speed section too.

If you introduce your to the website search feature you will likely find much more background info to your question than will be freshly posted here.

#1 there are pretty much no steel plates, with a few exceptions, they are all aluminum or plastics.

#2 As far as best geometry, you are correct that the steeper (0-20 degree kingpin plates will typically orient their trucks to swing at a more optimally shallow angle and give a better power stroke for speed.

#3 The steeper (30 degree) kingpin plates like the Avenger will turn further with less degrees of plate lean than the shallower action speed plate. This means that the track of your arc on turns can wiggle further as your precision of holding the correct plate lean slips off the mark. In addition, the Avenger DA45 type suspension tends to offer less stability near the neutral zone, since it carries much less of the skaters weight on the upper cushion. This causes the resistance to the initial truck swing away from neutral to me much lower than the shallower action typical speed plates - Reactor, Proline, and PowerTrac.

#4 Some skaters with good skills can still handle the more responsive DA45 suspension without any stability issues. Some can even get decent speed from them, but they still have built in design issues that make reaching and sustaining maximum speed more difficult for typical skaters.

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Old April 19th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #3
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Thanks Armadillo!

I use to do derby then started speedskating. When our derby team broke up, I stuck with speed as I actually like it better. I was leaning toward the Avenger before, but now that I am in speed, I get mixed reviews on weather I should get it for speed. Every bit of research I do tends to show that a plate like the Proline or something like it would be optimal. I guess I willl have to skate the plastics until I gather the cash for the right purchase.
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Old April 19th, 2012, 09:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi Bear View Post
Thanks Armadillo!

I use to do derby then started speedskating. When our derby team broke up, I stuck with speed as I actually like it better. I was leaning toward the Avenger before, but now that I am in speed, I get mixed reviews on weather I should get it for speed. Every bit of research I do tends to show that a plate like the Proline or something like it would be optimal. I guess I willl have to skate the plastics until I gather the cash for the right purchase.
For my money, the Nova plate is the best plastic speed plate to go with.
It is fiberglass reinforced and a box channel design similar to the Reactor.
For the price you can't beat it for a speed plate.

-Armadillo
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Old April 19th, 2012, 10:17 PM   #5
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Thanks, any suggestions for a decent aluminum plate?

I mean, I would love to have a Proline, but is it worth the money?
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Old April 19th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #6
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Proline, Boen, Ultimate 3 or 4, WIP, Galaxy or Powertrack............if speed is your goal get a speed plate.

The king of speed plates is a Boen Speed.
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Old April 29th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi Bear View Post

I was leaning toward the Avenger before, but now that I am in speed, I get mixed reviews on weather I should get it for speed. Every bit of research I do tends to show that a plate like the Proline or something like it would be optimal. I guess I willl have to skate the plastics until I gather the cash for the right purchase.
Hey Yogi, the SG Avenger DA45 plates were designed as a Speed/Race chasis, not a Derby plate per say, although many Derby players feel comfortable and perform well skating that plate. A "Speed" plate mostly due to the degree angle of the kingpin (45*) and the really light weight of the entire chasis, as opposed to 10*-17* angle kingpin on many other plate designs. These more standard kingpin angles allow a skater to keep better balance and stability, thus I think better for Derby (especially Blockers and Pivots). Though I know a lot of Jammers who prefer the agility and sharpness that a 45* angle kingpin is characteristic of. I think you may want to reconsider the Avenger plate. It's honestly and literally the most responsive plate I've ever Raced. I was on a PowerDyne Reactor (which I think is one of the best Speed plates made), but my Avenger is much more responsive; it's lighter, and it's solid, just like the Reactor plate.

Just my 10 cents worth

Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
The Advantage and the DA45 family of highly turn responsive plates are not design optimized for speed skating. They are less stable at speed. Some people use the term twitchy. They are designed to give the maximum amount of instant turning with the minimum amount of plate lean and effort.

This is NOT the design concept you want for getting the best speed skating performance from your skates.
... I must agree with JandKLarsen.
And here's something -You can control your speed stability by putting better emphasis on choosing the proper 'Bushing' durometer configurations. Not enough Quad SPeed skaters (or Derby or Artistic or others) put enough emphasis on what type of set-up they have in regards to what bushings lay over their Kingpin. 45* angled KP's are NOT 'unstable' as some is stating, they just provide a much sharper and responsive turn-ability. Now if you're Speed Skating and racing straight-away's or large oval track configurations, then you aren't worried about your cross overs or flex turns as much as if you were racing on standard rink floor specs. In any case, you can help control your stability by choosing the proper durometer rating in regards to your Bushings set-up. I use a higher duro rating Bushing at the base of the KP and a lower duro rated Bushing at the top. Depending on where I'm skating and what type of track, I'll go from a full barrel Bushing /Conical Bushing configuration, to a total full Barrel Bushing set-up (top and bottom) and I may even increase the Duro rating of the Bushings... it all depends, but it works, and it works well(for me at least). I currently race and I win races, period. My Avenger plate, with 45* KP (speaking from direct experience) is MORE responsive than my Reactors, and is extremely stable at Speed!...just as stable as the Reactor plates that I left for my Avenger plates.

So Yogi, There's always a personal preference factor(and that's always OK), but considering the technicality of it all, I would reconsider the Avenger as a Speed plate. That's what it was made for. Don't get me wrong; there's many other good plates out there as well
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Old April 29th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Hey Yogi, the SG Avenger DA45 plates were designed as a Speed/Race chasis, not a Derby plate per say, although many Derby players feel comfortable and perform well skating that plate.
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
A "Speed" plate mostly due to the degree angle of the kingpin (45*) and the really light weight of the entire chasis, as opposed to 10*-17* angle kingpin on many other plate designs. These more standard kingpin angles allow a skater to keep better balance and stability, thus I think better for Derby (especially Blockers and Pivots). Though I know a lot of Jammers who prefer the agility and sharpness that a 45* angle kingpin is characteristic of. I think you may want to reconsider the Avenger plate.
There are no Sure Grip plates with 45 degree kingpins - Zero, NaDa.

The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
It's honestly and literally the most responsive plate I've ever Raced. I was on a PowerDyne Reactor (which I think is one of the best Speed plates made), but my Avenger is much more responsive; it's lighter, and it's solid, just like the Reactor plate.

Just my 10 cents worth
Since when did high levels of turn response become a prerequisite for optimum speed plate performance and skater speed. Most serious speed skaters will disagree with this assertion, including me. I have explained this to death in other threads. Suffice it to say that a strong and full horizontal extension power stroke works more effectively on a less turn responsive plate, one where more plate tilt gives less plate turn.

The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
Also...

... I must agree with JandKLarsen.
And here's something -You can control your speed stability by putting better emphasis on choosing the proper 'Bushing' durometer configurations. Not enough Quad SPeed skaters (or Derby or Artistic or others) put enough emphasis on what type of set-up they have in regards to what bushings lay over their Kingpin. 45* angled KP's are NOT 'unstable' as some is stating, they just provide a much sharper and responsive turn-ability. Now if you're Speed Skating and racing straight-away's or large oval track configurations, then you aren't worried about your cross overs or flex turns as much as if you were racing on standard rink floor specs. In any case, you can help control your stability by choosing the proper durometer rating in regards to your Bushings set-up. I use a higher duro rating Bushing at the base of the KP and a lower duro rated Bushing at the top. Depending on where I'm skating and what type of track, I'll go from a full barrel Bushing /Conical Bushing configuration, to a total full Barrel Bushing set-up (top and bottom) and I may even increase the Duro rating of the Bushings... it all depends, but it works, and it works well(for me at least). I currently race and I win races, period. My Avenger plate, with 45* KP (speaking from direct experience) is MORE responsive than my Reactors, and is extremely stable at Speed!...just as stable as the Reactor plates that I left for my Avenger plates.
By definition, stability at speed means that slight errors in placement of the focus of weight on the skate, that tend to turn the plate away from the desired rolling line, will only trigger a limited amount of errant turn deviation from the desired track.

However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SwisherTONE View Post
So Yogi, There's always a personal preference factor(and that's always OK), but considering the technicality of it all, I would reconsider the Avenger as a Speed plate. That's what it was made for. Don't get me wrong; there's many other good plates out there as well
When I first rolled on a 30 degree kingpin plates with a high level of turn response, I immediately perceived my skating performance and speed to have improved significantly. Then I realized it was more like my body dynamics had changed as I adapted to the more curvy shape of strokes I could now do.

It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun.

Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't.

I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
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Old April 29th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.



There are no Sure Grip plates with 45 degree kingpins - Zero, NaDa.

The Avengers and other so called "DA45" plates all have 30 degree (measured from vertical) kingpins. The action angle (line about which trucks swing) is, however, very close to 45 degrees, and it is this angle, that affects a plates turning response the most anyway. Both angles do correlate and are somewhat married to each, but one value only affects the range of the other value, not the exact degree.




Since when did high levels of turn response become a prerequisite for optimum speed plate performance and skater speed. Most serious speed skaters will disagree with this assertion, including me. I have explained this to death in other threads. Suffice it to say that a strong and full horizontal extension power stroke works more effectively on a less turn responsive plate, one where more plate tilt gives less plate turn.

The plates that were actually design optimized for speed performance all reflect this reality by having steeper (0-15 degree) kingpins and shallower action angles (closer to horizontal 25-37 degrees)



By definition, stability at speed means that slight errors in placement of the focus of weight on the skate, that tend to turn the plate away from the desired rolling line, will only trigger a limited amount of errant turn deviation from the desired track.

However, with errors of weight placement when rolling on the more turn responsive DA45 plates, a GREATER amount of turn deviation from the desired track will result. As plate designs, like the DA45s, go steeper (more vertical) with their action angle geometry, they will always tend to become be more twitchy and less stable at speed. Good skills can still manage this inherent tendency of steep action plates, but they cannot make it disappear.


SwisherTONE - and you're absolutely correct about this, thus is why I always stress paying more attention to what bushings are over your pins. Most people want to lay bushings over their Kingpins because they 'match' or they 'look pretty' (and aesthetics are fine... I love my skate gear to look hot!!) but skaters (competitive skaters) don't put enough technical emphasis on their bushing set up. It makes all the difference! Most people are riding 85A or lower duro ratings on their kingpin... there are many harder rated bushings to choose from, so that you can configure what is going to balance out your set-up and stabilize your skating on your particular build. I stress this with all the people I skate with / train, and they've all said it's made a huge difference.



When I first rolled on a 30 degree kingpin plates with a high level of turn response, I immediately perceived my skating performance and speed to have improved significantly. Then I realized it was more like my body dynamics had changed as I adapted to the more curvy shape of strokes I could now do.

It seemed like I had started making better use of my hips and of body twisting and lateral weight shifting to more effectively lay power into my stroke. On top of that, my skating was a lot more fun.

Then I started wondering whether I really was going faster on the steep action plates. I started clock testing my speed on a closed loop outdoor course with the both styles of plates. After many time trials, it became very clear that I was slower on the more turn responsive plates. I felt sure that the more turny plates were faster, but the clock don't lie, and for me at least they weren't.

I still like to skate the 30 degree kingpin plates for sessions, but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
We can agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. Everything about the Avenger mimics a Speed Plate to me (it's design, it's weight, etc). Ever minor part of my indoor build and the adjustments I make to it (my bushing configuration, etc.) makes noticeable difference in the ways I'm hoping it will,when I making those adjustments. I'm not a NEWB. I've got over 2 decades under me in competitive speed skating/racing, so I think 'physical experience' and 'results' from such, will always trump what theoretical physics presumes to know or dictate.


By the way, I privately coach and train Derby players, and I'm very involved with my fiancee's team as a whole(most of you have heard me state this previously) and I 'tech' for her personally(and she's one of their most noted Jammers), and I've seen them ( the team) perform better (especially blockers/pivots) on a wider based plates (Like Artistic plates - i.e. SG Century plates, etc) with a lower degree KP (10*-17*) depending on the plate, and using a conical bushing set up with lower rated duro, than on plates like an Avenger or a Reactor or a Snyder.
Just sayin. I think it all comes down to; more than anything, to the personal preference of each skater. And that's really where all the difference lies. IMO

Much respect to ya 'dillo
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Old April 30th, 2012, 04:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Just where did you get this insider info on the process by which the design of the Avenger plate evolved? In terms of the plate's action geometry, its high degree of turning response performance is essentially the same as all the other DA45 plates of Sure Grip. In other ways like deck height, weight, shape, structural atributes, toe stop location, etc. it may be slightly different. However, the DA45 way it skates is nothing new. The DA 45 concept has been around for a long time.

The mushrooming market for derby skates is more recent. IMO the Avenger is primarily a market driven design targeted specifically for derby.


-Armadillo
I'm glad you added "IMO" in there 'Dillo

Sure-Grip actually say that the plate (Avenger) is aimed at "speed and derby" - so it isn't being marketed purely as a derby plate.

I'm still not set on what plate I'm going to get myself as I do speed and session on my skates and don't really want to switch between skates during an evening (yes... I, and many others I know, speed skate on "ridiculous-looking" hard shell inline hockey boots - both converted to quads and not!) when I get my new boots.

Sure-Grip PDF on the Avenger.
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Old May 1st, 2012, 02:10 AM   #11
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but for speed skating I am back on true speed plates, Sliders, PowerTracs or Novas.

-Armadillo
you need to get yourself a set of Boens somehow. Then you will know a true speed plate
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