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Inline Artistic Discussions about artistic skating on inline figure skates.

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Old August 21st, 2009, 11:28 PM   #1
tguido56
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Default A UK company reinvented the artistic inline skate

A fresh new.
I've just discovered the Iceblading site, by KCO Inline Ice Skating Ltd.
They advertise their "new concept" of inline artistic skates.
http://www.iceblading.co.uk/

The home page description tells "Iceblading is a new pathway into Learning how to Ice Skate without Ice! We are the first in the UK to produce a new inline skate SPECIALLY DESIGNED TO TEACH ICE SKATING SKILLS. Iceblading looks and feels like you are skating on ice. What makes it appealing is that it can be done on any smooth flat surface. Our dry ice blade replicates a real ice blade so jumps spins and turns can be performed!"

According to Applied Product Design, the company appointed for design engineering and production, fresh research and ideas have been put into the frames.
http://www.appliedproductdesign.co.u...iceblading.php

Certainly the look has its appeal, with the resemblance of a true ice blade.
Apart from that, I wonder what really new can be put in such a kind of product.

Inline artistic skates are already manufactured by several different firms around the world.
Each producer is trying to do his best in offering some kind of advantages over the competitors. They are all working since longtime, and continue to ameliorate and/or modify or diversify their products.
So... how can it be that a new company will perform better than the ones with a much longer tradition?

The same overall question emerges from
http://www.serpentineroad.com/viewtopic.php?p=461765
A good reading, I think.
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 02:23 AM   #2
Arthur Lee
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Some has made their comments on the BBC Dragons' Den. Check it out!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dragonsden/entr...enoneill.shtml

It's true that Inline artistic skates have been already manufactured by several different firms around the world, and I am one of the them. Karen O'Neill @KCO Inline Ice Skating Ltd bought a pair of Snow White Frames size 15 in July 2008 from SpikeyPete.com, our UK distributor.

In any common sense, I cat not accept their advertisement or claims of "new concept" of inline artistic skates.

As to the Intellectual Property issue, the Applied Product Design makes following description in their website:

"KCO were keen to protect the designs being generated. As such Applied Product Design wrote several patents to protect the relevant features of the design. All the drawings for which the designers were able to extract from the CAD work generated during the design phase."

Well..., I have foreseen there will be a lot of disputes of this since PIC skates owns a patent over artistic inline frames since 1995, plus there are lots of prior arts of different frames from other firms before KCO's 'invention'...

Arthur Lee
Managing Director
Double L's International Co., Ltd.
www.inlinefigure.com
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Old August 22nd, 2009, 09:51 PM   #3
firefly
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Unhappy So Much Wrong Here...

Obviously, no one has ever introduced these people to the concept of artistic inline..... They seem to think it's an original idea to jump and/or spin on inline skates...

Saw their video....NOT IMPRESSED. Those girls could have done just as well on snow whites or pics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuLmr5vjq4Y

Thought of sending them a video response of Rolaboi, Urquia or Traonouez (or a heel camel by Bryant)....but didn't want to seem like a jerk.

It just bugs me that they seem to "dis" regular inline by trying to imply that they are something "new." (As opposed to "regular" old inline that people get board of anyways.)

And the concept of the "universal lesson" (you can download it. ) is completely irresponsible. No longer a need to actually see and analyze your student's mistakes.....Nope. Now general concepts can cover it all. Honestly, I hope no one gets hurt.

Also, noticed that (on this video anyway) there are axel jumps, scratch spin, and spirals and a stag at :50. Look closely at that stag. To put it nicely, it did not seem...."super secure." (Not sure if this is the skater or the skates.) But I did take another look at them. That "toe rake" looks like it would be absolutely horrible to do toe jumps in (flip, lutz, mapes, toe walley, stags, splits etc.) Just don't see how you could get any decent spring off the thing.
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Last edited by firefly; August 23rd, 2009 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Added URL, added toe rake observation
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Old August 26th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #4
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I have just found this story about these skates:

http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/co...A45%3A19%3A530

I can't comment on the technical aspects but it appears that they are aiming to produce inline skates that feel the same as ice skates, for use by ice skaters when their rink is closed or for off-ice training.

How close are existing inline skates to ice skates in the way they feel to the skater? The article quotes the woman behind these as saying: "We realised they [the inline skates] were too high and too fast and weren't quite like ice skates. The weight distribution is all wrong - it was like skating on stilts. We went to a designer and adapted them."
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Old August 26th, 2009, 06:24 PM   #5
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Too high and too fast????!!!
Maybe I understand what she means by "high" but fast???????
Ice is much faster as there is no friction to push against. So I don't get what she means by that.

To be fair, I haven't tried a pair of these skates......but I don't see how you can ever hope to reproduce a "feel" of ice with any type of inline. (As I mentioned, there is friction on a solid surface with wheel vs gliding over (water) on ice. (Very little friction, sideways "slide" capabilities etc.)....Just will never be close to the same on any inline....After skating on both, I feel safe saying that inines are a hybrid that is 60% like roller, 20% like ice, and 20% it's own animal. (What a strange creature!!!)

Also.....
To me, it looks like this inline has a difficult toe stop design to do toe jumps in. I couldn't get the news article about them to play on my computer, but on the video above it is interesting that they do not do any toe jumps (flip, mapes) except the stags......um.....Still don't think that "toe rake" would work for a double (but I could be wrong. Like I said, haven't tried them.) It seems it would throw your jumps out instead of up (it is slanted, like an extremely worn toe stop.) It would be great to spin in because you could just get on the stop and twirl (no need to use an edge), and, from what I've heard from ice skaters who have contacted me (after seeing my videos) they are amazed that I can spin (especially backspin) on inlines. This is because they are trying to spin everything on their toestops instead of on an edge like a roller (quad) skater (which works well for backspins). But, of course, if you have never skated quad, only ice, you wouldn't know how to do this.....So, yes, this design would definitely make spins easier for them.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 01:50 AM   #6
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Post Toe stop

This definitely looks like a PIC rip-off, but the design and concepts have been used elsewhere, so it might be difficult to do anything about it.

I'm not impressed with the toe-stop either. There doesn't seem to be enough material to allow for wear. I like the roller skating type of toe stop the best since it is adjustable and can handle the wear. I also was able to adjust the older PIC toe stop by letting it wear and rotating it or cutting it with a file or saw to the height I wanted (which I can still do with the new design). This new manufacturers design doesn't allow for any of that.

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Too high and too fast????!!!
Maybe I understand what she means by "high" but fast???????
Ice is much faster as there is no friction to push against. So I don't get what she means by that.

To be fair, I haven't tried a pair of these skates......but I don't see how you can ever hope to reproduce a "feel" of ice with any type of inline. (As I mentioned, there is friction on a solid surface with wheel vs gliding over (water) on ice. (Very little friction, sideways "slide" capabilities etc.)....Just will never be close to the same on any inline....After skating on both, I feel safe saying that inines are a hybrid that is 60% like roller, 20% like ice, and 20% it's own animal. (What a strange creature!!!)

Also.....
To me, it looks like this inline has a difficult toe stop design to do toe jumps in. I couldn't get the news article about them to play on my computer, but on the video above it is interesting that they do not do any toe jumps (flip, mapes) except the stags......um.....Still don't think that "toe rake" would work for a double (but I could be wrong. Like I said, haven't tried them.) It seems it would throw your jumps out instead of up (it is slanted, like an extremely worn toe stop.) It would be great to spin in because you could just get on the stop and twirl (no need to use an edge), and, from what I've heard from ice skaters who have contacted me (after seeing my videos) they are amazed that I can spin (especially backspin) on inlines. This is because they are trying to spin everything on their toestops instead of on an edge like a roller (quad) skater (which works well for backspins). But, of course, if you have never skated quad, only ice, you wouldn't know how to do this.....So, yes, this design would definitely make spins easier for them.
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Old August 28th, 2009, 04:05 PM   #7
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Yes, I agree that the toe rake design is probably not a good idea.....though, like I said, to be fair, I didn't try a pair so I can't say for sure....

However... I am glad that ice skaters are beginning to pay more attention to inline...In my opinion, that is always a good thing.
Maybe I am wrong, but I still feel ice is our best way to gain attention/popularity for our sport. From what I see on youtube, it looks like at least 2 of the top inline men skate/preform on ice (Urquia, Baturin), and Melanie Bernhard (Swiss ladies champ) also preforms on ice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08VXELsjLiU
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Old August 29th, 2009, 03:44 AM   #8
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Smile Ice Skaters

I think the people that seem to be most enthused about inline figure skating are the ice skaters and coaches for a number of reasons including being able to practice for free or cheaply off the ice or where there is limited or no ice. This can be done on quad skates also, but ice skaters and coaches seem to me to know little about artistic quad skating.

It used to be years ago that many of the high-level ice skaters would compete on quads in the summer because there was no ice. The ice skaters don't typically do quads today, but they seem to more often do inlines.

Joe

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Originally Posted by firefly View Post
Yes, I agree that the toe rake design is probably not a good idea.....though, like I said, to be fair, I didn't try a pair so I can't say for sure....

However... I am glad that ice skaters are beginning to pay more attention to inline...In my opinion, that is always a good thing.
Maybe I am wrong, but I still feel ice is our best way to gain attention/popularity for our sport. From what I see on youtube, it looks like at least 2 of the top inline men skate/preform on ice (Urquia, Baturin), and Melanie Bernhard (Swiss ladies champ) also preforms on ice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08VXELsjLiU
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Old August 29th, 2009, 12:29 PM   #9
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Inline is definitely a bit closer in feel to ice than quad...Still, a lot different, though (especially the spins).....
Joe, thought you mentioned once that Michael Weiss has used inline. Am I right? Also, I saw an interview on rolaboi's site with the Belgium champion, Kevin van der Perrin (incredible jumper. Has the quad.). He uses inline to help practice his jumps. So that is 2 elite skaters. Too bad a big name could not "adopt" our cause. It would help a lot with exposure in ice world and may encourage some of them to try both/cross over........maybe.....(especially those with less $).
Only problem is that there are very few roller rinks around anymore and, of the ones that are left, only a handful have clubs or even allow freestyle. (And if they do, it's usually once a week on a Sunday morning. Nothing like ice availability.)
My own experience: Only one roller rink in town and it doesn't want "that kind of skating" on the floor during session. They do not have an artistic club and are not interested in starting one.
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Old August 31st, 2009, 12:04 AM   #10
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Post Michael Weiss

Yes, Michael Weiss was quite active in it. Nick Perna worked closely with him.

There are several difficulties as I see it in getting acceptance and certainly many more that are not clear. The first is that while inlines can be skated outdoors, the best environment in my opinion is a roller rink. So roller rinks have to get a buy in. They won't get a buy in until they can feel it helps their pocket book. Also the clubs are quite protective of their turf, so the best place for inline figure skating clubs is probably rinks that have no club. But then why don't they have a club? There are a lot of questions that need to be answered and some salesmanship and showing to the owners it is in their interest. At the rink where we had the Open, the owners definitely had a buy in, but I also developed a personal relationship over several years while taking lessons on quads.

I do think that the high level ice skaters can give an added presence to the sport, but most places where they can skate are seasonal outdoor venues and in warm climates there are days you just can't skate due to heat. The roller rinks are typically year around.

I was spoiled in Chicago because I had no problem skating inline figure skating indoors at rinks. Interestingly the housing development close to D.C. where I'm staying right now has an outdoor inline concrete hockey rink with a great surface, It's just been quite hot here and I've been quite busy getting oriented, so I'll have to do some early morning sessions once I get settled. I also did some skating and biking in D.C. at the Potomac Park this morning (see my upcoming comment in quads). The tennis courts are empty there in the morning, so they are possibilities to be visible.

The local rink in Manassas doesn't have a club, though they probably used to have one because there are figure circles on the floor. There's probably a good story behind that, but the manager has been here 20 years and never saw one.

Clubs can be a pain for rink owners. The coaches can sometimes be very demanding and not very flexible. The skaters can be arrogant and expect free skating. The best roller skating clubs I've seen have owners that were once coaches and bought a rink and probably still coach. This was true of my last two clubs.

One club in Virginia close to work that I contacted said they don't teach inlines so I would have to go to Maryland, where the appropriate club is about an hour and a half away. With having been laid off for a while my funds are limited at the moment, so that is an expensive trip and time-consuming. They said I could do quads at the local club, but have to go elsewhere for inline lessons.

Still I think it has to be a process where the clubs and rink owners see money in their pockets and no more headaches then they have. Once this happens the doors should open more widely.

I think ice skaters also have to realize it just doesn't work like the ice rinks. The owners of the roller rinks have a very hands-on approach typically. So they need to be approached on a business level. Also it really helps to develop a personal friendly relationship with the managers and owners.

It may also be that some rinks may have had problems with inline skaters in the past and just don't want to deal with it. There are certainly many stories out there.

Joe

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Originally Posted by firefly View Post
Inline is definitely a bit closer in feel to ice than quad...Still, a lot different, though (especially the spins).....
Joe, thought you mentioned once that Michael Weiss has used inline. Am I right? Also, I saw an interview on rolaboi's site with the Belgium champion, Kevin van der Perrin (incredible jumper. Has the quad.). He uses inline to help practice his jumps. So that is 2 elite skaters. Too bad a big name could not "adopt" our cause. It would help a lot with exposure in ice world and may encourage some of them to try both/cross over........maybe.....(especially those with less $).
Only problem is that there are very few roller rinks around anymore and, of the ones that are left, only a handful have clubs or even allow freestyle. (And if they do, it's usually once a week on a Sunday morning. Nothing like ice availability.)
My own experience: Only one roller rink in town and it doesn't want "that kind of skating" on the floor during session. They do not have an artistic club and are not interested in starting one.
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Old August 31st, 2009, 01:59 PM   #11
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Yes, I do think the ice skaters "crossing over" (or doing both) are probably the best bet to keep inline alive. What few quad freestylists are left, seem to be staying with quad (with a few exceptions). And figures (patch) seem pretty near impossible with inline (at least in the traditional sense.) I do think inline is good for dance/freedance (creative solo), but would need more interest (and competitions) for quad skaters to become interested....

You are definitely right about the $. At the end of the day it all boils down to the cost of rink, lights etc. Unless you have a lot of interest (a big club to split up the fee), the expense is ridiculous. Also, it seems the roller rinks are a lot more worried about the liability than they used to be. Don't skate like THAT, you might get HURT!!!!

Like I said above, I'm glad these ice skaters are at least generating some interest in artistic inline. (Even if the toe rake is a bit funny. )
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Old September 1st, 2009, 02:28 AM   #12
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Smile Slalom

While we don't have figures on inlines, I've been quite intrigued with the slalom skating as a replacement. It is an excellent tool for developing footwork and the kids love it. I do know that Carlessa uses figure circles when she teaches inlines. It might not be as pretty as ice or quads, but it is another skill development tool.

Joe

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Originally Posted by firefly View Post
Yes, I do think the ice skaters "crossing over" (or doing both) are probably the best bet to keep inline alive. What few quad freestylists are left, seem to be staying with quad (with a few exceptions). And figures (patch) seem pretty near impossible with inline (at least in the traditional sense.) I do think inline is good for dance/freedance (creative solo), but would need more interest (and competitions) for quad skaters to become interested....

You are definitely right about the $. At the end of the day it all boils down to the cost of rink, lights etc. Unless you have a lot of interest (a big club to split up the fee), the expense is ridiculous. Also, it seems the roller rinks are a lot more worried about the liability than they used to be. Don't skate like THAT, you might get HURT!!!!

Like I said above, I'm glad these ice skaters are at least generating some interest in artistic inline. (Even if the toe rake is a bit funny. )
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Old September 1st, 2009, 12:00 PM   #13
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She uses the figure circles??!! Really??? Wow!!
I do the turns (3s, counters, rockers, brackets etc.), down the floor (MITF style) or in footwork as a warm up....Tried to stay on a figure line (or somewhere close) a few times, but could not manage it.

Interesting what you say about the slalom as a replacement.....I LIKE IT!!!!
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Old September 1st, 2009, 01:47 PM   #14
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Default Dragons Den

I have to say I saw the pitch on dragons den and to say i was riled is an understatement. The fact that they had done no research on inline skating wound me up mostly. To say that you can't jump or spin on them - aaaggghhh - not sure what the two young british lads were doing at the championships then cos they kind of looked like they were but apparently not.

And as for Jayson - well his must all be an optical illusion. Hopefully the dragon that bid on them will find out more and realise that it's not what it seemed
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Old September 1st, 2009, 02:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by debbiee View Post
I have to say I saw the pitch on dragons den and to say i was riled is an understatement. The fact that they had done no research on inline skating wound me up mostly. To say that you can't jump or spin on them - aaaggghhh - not sure what the two young british lads were doing at the championships then cos they kind of looked like they were but apparently not.

And as for Jayson - well his must all be an optical illusion. Hopefully the dragon that bid on them will find out more and realise that it's not what it seemed

I didn't catch the episode of Dragon's Den where this was pitched - what a stupid thing for them to claim! In watching the "Skate Nation" series, it is obvious you can jump or spin on almost any type of skate, though some are better than others. One team of speed skaters did have to change their speed skates - but only for a different type of inline.
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Old September 2nd, 2009, 02:21 AM   #16
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Smile Slalom

We introduced it at the Open and the kids loved it. It is something they can do in their garage, basement, pretty much anywhere and it helps develop technique. Of course, the slalom skaters do it for its own sake and they are growing quite rapidly in numbers. There was an interesting writeup on the About.com inline skating forum that Carlesa runs about some of their recent gatherings.

Maybe Carlesa can chime in since she is on this group, but as I understand it the importance is learning control, not tracing as much and so the lines just act as a guide to force the skater to focus the body.

Joe

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She uses the figure circles??!! Really??? Wow!!
I do the turns (3s, counters, rockers, brackets etc.), down the floor (MITF style) or in footwork as a warm up....Tried to stay on a figure line (or somewhere close) a few times, but could not manage it.

Interesting what you say about the slalom as a replacement.....I LIKE IT!!!!
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Old September 3rd, 2009, 08:18 AM   #17
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Well as you know the programme well I hope that it reignites the interest in skating in the uk as the numbers sadly as this years Championships were low.

And yes it is a great example of what you can do on all kinds of skates, artistic, pure speed, the ramps for adrenalin, the exercise, can't see that there's not something for everyone - yay another revival even if the Olympics don't want us
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