S k a t e L o g     F o r u m

Closed in June of 2020

SKATELOG DOT COM: Web Site | Blog | Facebook |    


Home

*** The SkateLog Forum Has Been Replaced by SkateDebate Dot Com ***

FROM SKATELOG FORUM HOST KATHIE FRY IN MARCH OF 2020:
This announcement is to let everyone know that after hosting the SkateLog Forum and its predecessors for nearly 20 years, I have decided it is time to permanently turn the forum over to a new owner and administrator. I cannot think of anyone more suitable to take on that role than my SkateLog forum co-host, Florida skater Jessica Wright. I am pleased to announce that Jessica has agreed to establish and host a brand new skating forum, configured like the SkateLog Forum, but with a new name and a new Web Site. This new forum is 100% owned and operated by Jessica.

NEW FORUM NAME: SkateDebate Forum
NEW WEB SITE: SkateDebate.com
NEW OWNER AND ADMINISTRATOR: Jessica Wright
REGISTER IN JESSICA'S FORUM: Create a SkateDebate Forum User Name


Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Quad Roller Skating Forum > Outdoor Quads
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Outdoor Quads Discussions about outdoor quad skates and any discussion relatd to skating on quad roller skatse outdoors.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 9th, 2011, 09:18 PM   #1
Josh_S
Neophyte
 
Josh_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 16
Question Skates used outdoors and indoors?

Hi, I'd appreciate help selecting parts for a pair of skates that will be used for recreational skating both outdoors and indoors. The skates will be used on bike paths roughly half the time and in rinks the other half.

Last month my girlfriend, who does derby, took me to a rink and I skated for the first time in 23 years. I enjoyed it and now I want some skates. I'm a 34-year-old guy who is 6'1" and weighs 165 lbs.

BOOTS

I want boots that are as comfortable as possible. People recommend Bonts and soccer boots. It seems that the latter can be problematic (e.g., glue), so I'm leaning towards the former. Specifically, I'm trying to choose between the following boots:
  • Bont Quad Racer Carbon
  • Bont Quad Racer Leather (fiberglass)
  • Bont Quad Hybrid Carbon
  • Bont Quad Hybrid Leather (fiberglass)
I'm having difficulty choosing between the Racers and Hybrids. While the thinner leather of the Racers would presumably be more comfortable, the thicker leather of the hybrids would be more durable for outdoor skating.

I'm also having difficulty choosing between carbon and fiberglass. There doesn't seem to be much difference between them. Though, godzilla wrote that the carbon base is "stiffer than the fiberglass one but not too much stiffer." A stiffer base would presumably be better if I were to use a nylon plate, which is the type of plate that Armadillo recommends for outdoor skating.

PLATES

I want plates that will minimize vibration when skating outdoors. I'm also interested in DA45, which many people seem to enjoy. Additionally, I want the plates to be forward mounted for stability outdoors and reverse mounted so I can have heel stops.

Armadillo recommends long nylon plates for outdoor skating. Would long plates work for indoors, too? There doesn't seem to be a nylon DA45 plate that is long relative to my 11.5" shoe size. The longest Sure-Grip Skins DA45 plate is a size 6, which is the size that Armadillo uses, and his shoe size is 10".

Would a size 6 Skins plate be long enough for me? Given my inexperience at skating, would a size 6 Skins plate provide enough stability when forward mounted?

If I need longer plates, which should I give up: nylon or DA45?

If I were to give up DA45, which longer nylon plates would be best for my situation? Reserector wrote that Sure-Grip Rock plates flex too much. Armadillo wrote that Sure-Grip Nova plates don't turn well. And the Sunlite and Laser Hardnose plates don't seem to be popular.

If I were to give up nylon, I'd probably choose the Sure-Grip Invader DA45 or the Sure-Grip XK-4 DA45. I've read that these plates differ in the placement of their toe stops: the space between the Invader's front axle and toe stop is greater than that of the XK-4. If I were to choose between these two plates, I'd like to know which plate would provide better placement of a heel stop when reverse mounted. I'm guessing that I would be less likely to trip over the XK-4's heel stop during crossovers.

Lastly, if there's a particular plate you think would be best for my situation, I'd appreciate your thoughts regarding the cushions you think I should use with those plates.

OUTDOOR WHEELS

I couldn't find any stores that carry Pacer Roller Derby Twister, Pacer Velocity Race, Lazer Blaze, or Vanguard Boomerang wheels.

Armadillo expressed concern about the durability of Roll-Line Helium or Roll-Line Hydrogen wheels when used outdoors. At this point, I'm more concerned about durability than performance.

So it seems I'm left with the Kryptonics Route 65 and Kryptonics Route 70 wheels. I'll probably use the latter unless someone suggests a better alternative.

MISCELLANEOUS

I plan to use 8mm axles, Bones Reds bearings, wrist guards, knee pads, a helmet (outdoors), and Riedell toe caps. My girlfriend said she'd give me her old indoor wheels and her extra pair of stops.

THANK YOU!

I'd really appreciate any help you can offer. Thanks!

Last edited by Josh_S; April 9th, 2011 at 10:25 PM.
Josh_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 10:00 PM   #2
Nellie
Senior Member
 
Nellie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 210
Default Boomerang wheels

You can still get (what's probably the last set of) Vanguard Boomerangs from Toddtwist on eBay UK. He ships to the US too. They'd cost you about $ 90, shipping included, roughly the same as Lazer Blazes, which you could get from Flemo on this forum.
Nellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2011, 11:12 PM   #3
Josh_S
Neophyte
 
Josh_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nellie View Post
They'd cost you about $ 90, shipping included, roughly the same as Lazer Blazes, which you could get from Flemo on this forum.
Hi, Nellie, I just now emailed Flemo about the Lazer Blaze wheels. Thanks for your help!
Josh_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #4
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 5,719
Default

Hi Josh

It is rare that a thread start post is so clearly laid out and confirms that the poster has really done their homework in reviewing the vast amount ovf material already available via the SLF search features.
Kudos to you for that.

My first point is to warn you that of the three items that can offer some degree of vibration reduction, the plate is the weakest contributor. The wheels are the primary vibration absorber. The boot/sole/insole are a close second and the plate is a distant third. In the case of the DA45 plates however, their geometry actually transfers the most vibrations up through the trucks into the plates. This is because of the near vertical line from the pivot ball center down through the axle centerline. With this geometry, the upper cushion cannot contribute much toward vibration dampening, since the shock force vector resolves more vertically through the UN-CUSHIONED pivot pin line and less in the direction of the upper cushion line.

As far as the size 6 Skins plate being suitable on a size 11.5 boot, I think you need to decide if you can handle an short-forward Aussie style mount. Skins 6 WOULD match up well if you can handle having the rear axle a bit forward of standard location. This would also make the skates a bit more turn responsive when you roll them indoors.

In my own case I have three pairs of skates that I roll both indoors and outdoors, with two being very long and one slightly long. All three pair have exceptional turning capability. The Novas and the Sliders are both steep kingpins too, but the Omegas (my outdoor slalom slates) are SA45s converted to semi-DA. I do not feel AT ALL turning deprived when I skate any of these despite none of them being DA45 plates.
You can mount a set of Nova plates on a Bont boot and get close to DA45 performance. You can mount a Skins plate and put Panther trucks on it to give DA45 performance with less truck weight. You can also mount Laser plates and get close to Da45 turning performance with a properly tweaked cushion scheme.

As far as outdoor rolling foot comfort, I have heard good things recently about the Bont carbon sole being able to isolate your foot from most to the vibration coming up through the trucks/plate. This despite their not so thick foot cushioning design.

I am currently building a new pair of outdoor skates using the Nike Retro re-release of my avatar PIC BB shoes. Like you I want it to perform reasonably well both indoors and outdoors with the priority slanted more for outdoor. I am struggling with the choice of what plate to mount. I have the options of Sliders, Skins, Panthers, Omegas, and Novas and it is really a tough choice. Since I can make all of them turn well, the emphasis shifts more toward what kind of skating will I be doing most of the time I will roll on them. I also am concerned about being able to fit the largest variety and sizes of outdoor wheels on them. In this regard the Sliders and Novas are better than the Skins/Omegas and Panthers.

If I was you, I think I would get the Skins size 6 plates and have the delrin pivot cups enlarged to accept a 3/8" pivot ball. Then I would put Ultimate2 metal trucks on them and set them up with semi DA cushions to have DA45 level of turning. By placing the plate optimally on the Bont, I think you could have the resulting wheelbase handle the needs of both indoor and outdoor skating with quite reasonable results. My only concerns would be with how much The U2 trucks might shorten the effective wheelbase, and whether the result would allow the 70mm or larger wheels to fit the plate without getting any wheel bite. The taller upper cushion size that the U2 truck requires would certainly help with reducing vibrations.

I will test my Skins Sz6 plates with the U2 trucks as soon as I can get the ball end mill i need to enlarge the delrin pivot cups. Will let you know the result with PIC in a few days.

As for the wheels, I will PM you with another new option.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 09:32 AM   #5
Josh_S
Neophyte
 
Josh_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
It is rare that a thread start post is so clearly laid out and confirms that the poster has really done their homework in reviewing the vast amount ovf material already available via the SLF search features.
Thanks, Armadillo!

Quote:
In the case of the DA45 plates however, their geometry actually transfers the most vibrations up through the trucks into the plates. This is because of the near vertical line from the pivot ball center down through the axle centerline. With this geometry, the upper cushion cannot contribute much toward vibration dampening, since the shock force vector resolves more vertically through the UN-CUSHIONED pivot pin line and less in the direction of the upper cushion line.
I didn't know this. Thanks for the info. I added this to my notes.

Quote:
As far as the size 6 Skins plate being suitable on a size 11.5 boot, I think you need to decide if you can handle an short-forward Aussie style mount.
I don't know if I can handle Aussie style at this point. I think I would not be able to, or not want to, maintain such a forward posture all the time. You made a similar point in the following post that I previously made note of:

http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...t.php?p=426608

Quote:
In my own case I have three pairs of skates that I roll both indoors and outdoors, with two being very long and one slightly long. All three pair have exceptional turning capability. [...] I do not feel AT ALL turning deprived when I skate any of these despite none of them being DA45 plates.
Interesting. I didn't know that the skates you use indoors have long plates. Also, I didn't know that skates with long plates could turn well. This is pushing me further in the direction of using longer plates.

Quote:
You can mount a set of Nova plates on a Bont boot and get close to DA45 performance.
What adjustments would I need to make to get this performance. In the post below, you wrote that Novas don't turn that well even after a Super Cushion upgrade. To make the Novas turn well, do the trucks need to be replaced? If so, what trucks should be used?

http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...t.php?p=427006

Quote:
If I was you, I think I would get the Skins size 6 plates [...]
I'm tempted to get the size 6 Skins, but if the Novas can be made to turn well, it seems that they would provide a more confortable, stable ride for me, given my lack of skating experience.

Quote:
I will test my Skins Sz6 plates with the U2 trucks as soon as I can get the ball end mill i need to enlarge the delrin pivot cups. Will let you know the result with PIC in a few days.
I'll watch for your post.

Quote:
As for the wheels, I will PM you with another new option.
Thanks, Armadillo, I really appreciate your help!
Josh_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 07:31 PM   #6
Nellie
Senior Member
 
Nellie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 210
Default plate size

By the way, we all have different opinions on this, but I do not think you need a long plate outdoors. What really matters is that the front axle should be at the base of your big toe.
For your shoe size Roll-line and other European brands recommend a wheelbase of 180mm in Europe, which is usually considered a 'shorter sport mount' on this forum (whereas here it's just considered the regular size), and French quad skaters would recommend a 170mm wheelbase, if you go by the chart on their website. Personally, I am convinced that you'd be happier with a shorter plate indoors and outdoors.
I listened to the French skaters' advice for my last two pairs of skates, after I had skated on plates that were 25-30mm too long for me for years, and I couldn't be happier with them.
Nellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 09:24 PM   #7
Josh_S
Neophyte
 
Josh_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nellie View Post
What really matters is that the front axle should be at the base of your big toe.
Yeah, I'll definitely position the front axle there.

Quote:
For your shoe size Roll-line and other European brands recommend a wheelbase of 180mm in Europe, which is usually considered a 'shorter sport mount' on this forum (whereas here it's just considered the regular size), and French quad skaters would recommend a 170mm wheelbase, if you go by the chart on their website.
I didn't know this. Thanks for the info, Nellie. I added this to my notes. This might explain why I've seen people refer to short forward mounts and long forward mounts but never normal or medium forward mounts; what's considered a normal/medium length seems to be very relative.

Quote:
Personally, I am convinced that you'd be happier with a shorter plate indoors and outdoors. I listened to the French skaters' advice for my last two pairs of skates, after I had skated on plates that were 25-30mm too long for me for years, and I couldn't be happier with them.
Thanks a lot for your insight. It's clear that most of the knowledgeable quad skaters at SkateLog prefer shorter plates. And even Armadillo, a user of long plates, recommended that I use size 6 Skins plates (188mm). Now that I know that 188mm plates would actually be longer than the widths recommended to me in Europe, I feel much more confident that they will provide enough stability, even while I lack skating experience. So now I'm leaning towards getting the size 6 Skins plates.

Thanks again, Nellie!
Josh_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 10:03 PM   #8
Josh_S
Neophyte
 
Josh_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
If I was you, I think I would get the Skins size 6 plates and have the delrin pivot cups enlarged to accept a 3/8" pivot ball. Then I would put Ultimate2 metal trucks on them and set them up with semi DA cushions to have DA45 level of turning.
How different is the setup you describe compared to the Skins DA45 plate from Leadjammer Skates?

http://leadjammerskates.com/plates.html

I'm still trying to familiarize myself with all the different parts (e.g., delrin pivot cups).
Josh_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 10:31 PM   #9
cojaco61
Locutus of QUORG!
 
cojaco61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2,290
Default My 2 cents

A number of things

First off plate size and type.

I personally would go for an NTS plate. using stops outdoors is a recipe for disaster if you ask me. While I have never used a plate with stops though so I could be biased.

As for the type, the Lazer X tech Boen copies are a very nice plate for their price. Chuck in some White Khiros or SG purples and they are sweet.

As a rule of thumb regarding size, measure from the point where your big toe meets the ball of your foot to the middle of your inside ankle bone. You may not get a plate to match this exactly but usually can come within 5mm either way. When mounting have the axles so the front is in line with the ball/toe joint this will have the rear axle falling at the mid ankle.

This setup is an Aussie mount, but it is a misnomer to call it short forward. Short forward is what Doc does for his mounts.

Soccer boots give you a very nice cheaper option. But if you do go for Bonts don't worry about their durability outdoor, they have been used for years by Aussies on road with no problem.

Wheels, as someone has noted the Lazer wheels from Flemo are also a great option.

Hope this hasn't just confused you at all. As said this is just my 2 cents.
__________________
We are the QUORG! You will be assimiskated. Skating Inlines is Futile!
Colin Coakes,
Wollongong, NSW, Australia
cojaco61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10th, 2011, 11:45 PM   #10
Josh_S
Neophyte
 
Josh_S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cojaco61 View Post
I personally would go for an NTS plate. using stops outdoors is a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
What do you think is the best way for an inexperienced skater to stop quickly outdoors without using heel stops and without damaging soft wheels? Most of the techniques I've seen and read about seem to require a level of experience that I don't have. And other techniques, such as t-stops, seem as if they would damage soft wheels, including the wheels that I'll likely use.

Quote:
As for the type, the Lazer X tech Boen copies are a very nice plate for their price.
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of interest in Lazer plates in the following ongoing thread:

http://www.skatelogforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=35138

Quote:
When mounting have the axles so the front is in line with the ball/toe joint this will have the rear axle falling at the mid ankle.
It seems that the rear axle would fall close to mid ankle if I were to forward mount, for example, the 188mm Skins plates that Armadillo recommended.

Quote:
Soccer boots give you a very nice cheaper option.
Yeah, I'm still open to using soccer boots. I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to build such a skate myself, but ogfarmskater's shop, Jam N Speed West, is close to where I live, so I could ask him to build my skates.

http://jamnspeedwest.com/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jam-N-...12735635420727

Quote:
But if you do go for Bonts don't worry about their durability outdoor, they have been used for years by Aussies on road with no problem.
Yeah, if I were to go with Bonts, it seems that I should get the Quad Racers. Also, people seem to recommend the carbon version.

Thanks for your help, Colin!
Josh_S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 12:27 AM   #11
cojaco61
Locutus of QUORG!
 
cojaco61's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Wollongong, NSW, Australia
Posts: 2,290
Default An extra 2 cents

By all means get a heel brake if you feel you need to. It is just most the places I skate I don't need to stop suddenly.

But in the past if I did have to stop in a hurry there is usually a grass run off. Sorry can't be much help on the stopping side of things. Never really think too much about it.

From what people tell me the Quad Racer Leather is more comfortable than the Carbon version. But once again just heresay.

Mounting is really not that hard. There is plenty advice available on here and lots of pics if you search it out. Just measure 3 times, drill once.
__________________
We are the QUORG! You will be assimiskated. Skating Inlines is Futile!
Colin Coakes,
Wollongong, NSW, Australia
cojaco61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 12:47 AM   #12
Stormi
Join the Quad Squad!
 
Stormi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Shellharbour area, NSW, Australia
Posts: 563
Default

For stopping outdoors, it depends where you are skating. I skate a relatively flat bike trail, and I tend to stop by rolling till I have slowed down, or doing a plow stop, then doing a spin stop (whatever that's called). I try not to do T-stops outdoors as the surface would be pretty rough on the wheels, I would think.
Downhill skating is a whole other story. That will get your speed to out of control level pretty quickly, even on a hill that you thought didn't look very steep. In those cases, grass stops work quite well, but if your speed is out of control you may need a rather large grass area because you WILL keep going from momentum once you hit the grass
I have toe stops on my outdoor skates, but I don't even use toe-stops (they are on my indoor skates, too, and I don't use those, either lol). I am ordering a Sure Grip back brake for my outdoor skates, though, because I don't want to find myself in that situation again of rolling way too fast down a hill and not being able to stop myself.
__________________
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eyelet - Reserector
Stormi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 12:59 AM   #13
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 5,719
Default

Combining a Bont carbon sole boot with a DA45 plate is going to produce a very TWITCHY skate at high speed, especially if it is a short forward mount. As I keep telling people, there many other ways to have a very turny plate without going DA45-S/F, and most of them will skate better at speed outdoors on the rougher rolling surfaces. Twitchy plates means that they can over steer when even a slight error in the placement of your weight on the skate occurs. Indoors, a twitchy plate is less of an issue, and it performs well on the more consistently smooth surface.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 03:03 AM   #14
Iggy
DGS Racing
 
Iggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PITTSBURGH, PA
Posts: 3,223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Combining a Bont carbon sole boot with a DA45 plate is going to produce a very TWITCHY skate at high speed, especially if it is a short forward mount.

-Armadillo
This is absolutely false. I skate a DA45 on a hard soled boot outdoor and it is far from twitchy. You have a large range of adjustability when it comes to the DA45s. You can leave them loose so they would be twitchy, you can crank them down so they don't turn at all, or you can go with any of the multitude of levels in between. A lot of people that try DA45s do not take the time to tune them and come away saying they are too twitchy. DA45s are very versatile plates.

If you feel you need a heel brake, I'd say the 188mm DA45 Skins mounted on the Bonts would be a decent outdoor/indoor setup. I personally don't like heel brakes. I tried them and it almost put me on my face when it dug in too hard and almost brought me to a dead stop way too quick. A NTS plate is best for outdoor IMO. A t-stop really won't wear down your wheels as fast as you may think.
__________________
Skate Drama Free
"Ultimate V - Like a skate mullet." -dvw
Iggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 03:08 AM   #15
Iggy
DGS Racing
 
Iggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PITTSBURGH, PA
Posts: 3,223
Default Forgot some stuff

Also...a long plate will never turn as well as a properly set up shorter plate. Wheelbase is a very important thing to look at when picking a plate. If you're going to do any shuffle skating indoor, definitely go with a shorter plate. I run a 6.75" wheelbase Royal on my size 11 boots indoor. If you wanna try Dillo's concepts of the long plates and upside down cushions by all means give it a go, but you will not be as happy on them as you would be on a shorter wheelbase with the right cushions.
__________________
Skate Drama Free
"Ultimate V - Like a skate mullet." -dvw
Iggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 05:28 AM   #16
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 5,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
This is absolutely false. I skate a DA45 on a hard soled boot outdoor and it is far from twitchy. You have a large range of adjustability when it comes to the DA45s. You can leave them loose so they would be twitchy, you can crank them down so they don't turn at all, or you can go with any of the multitude of levels in between. A lot of people that try DA45s do not take the time to tune them and come away saying they are too twitchy. DA45s are very versatile plates.

If you feel you need a heel brake, I'd say the 188mm DA45 Skins mounted on the Bonts would be a decent outdoor/indoor setup. I personally don't like heel brakes. I tried them and it almost put me on my face when it dug in too hard and almost brought me to a dead stop way too quick. A NTS plate is best for outdoor IMO. A t-stop really won't wear down your wheels as fast as you may think.
"Crank them down" if you want to choke up their action. The twitchiness comes form the design of the DA45's TRUCK GEOMETRY. Cranking down the cushions is merely an attempt to hide it, but it is always there. I prefer to keep FREEDOM OF ACTION for BOTH outdoors and indoors. The SHALLOWER action line (steeper kingpin) plates perform better outdoors. Optimized cushion setups with these plates allows for both stability AND free turning with the longer wheelbase concept -- WITHOUT cranking down the cushions and at all speeds. They don't need to be changed for indoor or outdoor, because they allow for setting up MORE PRE-compression without choking up the freedom of action.
The short wheelbase is a lame way to accomplish the kind of turning that freedom of action can already produce.
It can only offer you a limited boost in results, and the only place I would even consider using it is for a slalom skate build. Cushion optimization will give most skates all the turning performance the skater can handle. Those who can't accomplish this will typically retreat to promoting the short plate concept instead. I agree that a shorter plate can let you squeeze some addition turning sharpness out of a build, but this level of turning is not that much beyond what cushions alone can do.

A double-duty indoor-outdoor build will require you to make some trade offs. If your skating emphasis will be primarily indoor session, shuffle, etc., then by all means consider the heavier DA45 scheme, but if you set it up for the short forward, it will be a weak performer as an outdoor speed skate, unless you enjoy the heavy truck weight and are comfortable leaning forward to keep your weight more centered at the front of the plates. You can still go fast on DA45 plates, just not as easily , or as fast.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 06:33 AM   #17
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 5,719
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh_S View Post
How different is the setup you describe compared to the Skins DA45 plate from Leadjammer Skates?

http://leadjammerskates.com/plates.html

I'm still trying to familiarize myself with all the different parts (e.g., delrin pivot cups).
Suspension-wise it looks like this and has a more cushioning above the truck which helps with vibration:


This is an Omega plate, of which the Skins are nearly identical clones. Overall setup looks like this (substitute Bont for BB shoe):


They are my current slalom skates outdoors and I also skate session indoors with them. They will match or exceed the turning of the typical DA45 setups too. The trucks weigh about 1/2 the DA45 trucks. BTW, I do not advise you go with 8mm as the 7mm axles are typpicaly STRONGER, and outdoor skating is punishing to the equipment.
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 08:22 AM   #18
cass38a
Senior Member
 
cass38a's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Newcastle NSW, Australia
Posts: 3,517
Default

Don't get too excited about a lot of this stuff that Dillo is blabbing on about, an aussie mount is a great all purpose skate and will serve you well regardless of plate chosen.

Forget about maximum turn response for a all purpose skate and also forget about maximum stability, you will rarley use or even want to use these features.

You can skate very fast on a DA45 plate and you can turn on a dime on a 10 degree speed plate, if you know how to skate.

I have both a leather and carbon quad racer, leather is more comfortable but the carbon is stiffer AND lighter. Unless you are sold on the exposed carbon heel look either will do the job well.

Stopping outdoors (or indoors) takes practice and T stops are not that bad, I skate around town on my training wheels and they have lasted for 2 years and still have plenty of life left in them.

Now as you are building a all purpose skate you need flip axels (only come in 7mm) so that you can swich between your indoor and outdoor wheels quickly.

There are a few plates which fit the bill and are easy to get, Lazer X tech or alantis, NTS sure grip cyclone or a NTS probe with Flips.
cass38a is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 01:06 PM   #19
Nellie
Senior Member
 
Nellie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 210
Default Sorry, slightly off-topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post

They are my current slalom skates
You have a heel brake ON YOUR SLALOM SKATES??
Nellie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11th, 2011, 03:01 PM   #20
Iggy
DGS Racing
 
Iggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: PITTSBURGH, PA
Posts: 3,223
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Hi Josh

It is rare that a thread start post is so clearly laid out and confirms that the poster has really done their homework in reviewing the vast amount ovf material already available via the SLF search features.
Kudos to you for that.

My first point is to warn you that of the three items that can offer some degree of vibration reduction, the plate is the weakest contributor. The wheels are the primary vibration absorber. The boot/sole/insole are a close second and the plate is a distant third.

Agreed

In the case of the DA45 plates however, their geometry actually transfers the most vibrations up through the trucks into the plates. This is because of the near vertical line from the pivot ball center down through the axle centerline. With this geometry, the upper cushion cannot contribute much toward vibration dampening, since the shock force vector resolves more vertically through the UN-CUSHIONED pivot pin line and less in the direction of the upper cushion line.

Maybe, but I notice less vibration with my DA45 outdoor setup than I did with my 10 degree (I think) Marathons.

As far as the size 6 Skins plate being suitable on a size 11.5 boot, I think you need to decide if you can handle an short-forward Aussie style mount. Skins 6 WOULD match up well if you can handle having the rear axle a bit forward of standard location. This would also make the skates a bit more turn responsive when you roll them indoors.

A 188mm wheelbase would not be that short on an 11.5. Actually it'd be kinda long. I believe a 190mm would be standard on an 11.5. Or at least Roll Line says a 190mm is standard on my size 11.

In my own case I have three pairs of skates that I roll both indoors and outdoors, with two being very long and one slightly long. All three pair have exceptional turning capability. The Novas and the Sliders are both steep kingpins too, but the Omegas (my outdoor slalom slates) are SA45s converted to semi-DA. I do not feel AT ALL turning deprived when I skate any of these despite none of them being DA45 plates.

That's good that you're happy with them. Some of us want more

You can mount a set of Nova plates on a Bont boot and get close to DA45 performance.

Not a chance.

You can mount a Skins plate and put Panther trucks on it to give DA45 performance with less truck weight.

Or you could mount a Skins with the appropriate DA45 trucks and get real DA45 performance on an already light weight plate.

You can also mount Laser plates and get close to Da45 turning performance with a properly tweaked cushion scheme.

I never skated Lasers, but I doubt you're the only one I've ever seen say you can make a Laser perform even close to a DA45.

As far as outdoor rolling foot comfort, I have heard good things recently about the Bont carbon sole being able to isolate your foot from most to the vibration coming up through the trucks/plate. This despite their not so thick foot cushioning design.

I have not skated the Bonts outdoor, but from skating them indoor I would definitely think they'd make a great outdoor boot.

I am currently building a new pair of outdoor skates using the Nike Retro re-release of my avatar PIC BB shoes. Like you I want it to perform reasonably well both indoors and outdoors with the priority slanted more for outdoor. I am struggling with the choice of what plate to mount. I have the options of Sliders, Skins, Panthers, Omegas, and Novas and it is really a tough choice. Since I can make all of them turn well, the emphasis shifts more toward what kind of skating will I be doing most of the time I will roll on them. I also am concerned about being able to fit the largest variety and sizes of outdoor wheels on them. In this regard the Sliders and Novas are better than the Skins/Omegas and Panthers.

If I was you, I think I would get the Skins size 6 plates and have the delrin pivot cups enlarged to accept a 3/8" pivot ball. Then I would put Ultimate2 metal trucks on them and set them up with semi DA cushions to have DA45 level of turning.

Or, like I said, get a real DA45 Skins and do it right. The "semi DA" setup won't perform as well as a real DA45. And P.S....Ultimate trucks aren't exactly falling off trees

By placing the plate optimally on the Bont, I think you could have the resulting wheelbase handle the needs of both indoor and outdoor skating with quite reasonable results. My only concerns would be with how much The U2 trucks might shorten the effective wheelbase, and whether the result would allow the 70mm or larger wheels to fit the plate without getting any wheel bite. The taller upper cushion size that the U2 truck requires would certainly help with reducing vibrations.

I will test my Skins Sz6 plates with the U2 trucks as soon as I can get the ball end mill i need to enlarge the delrin pivot cups. Will let you know the result with PIC in a few days.

As for the wheels, I will PM you with another new option.

-Armadillo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo
"Crank them down" if you want to choke up their action. The twitchiness comes form the design of the DA45's TRUCK GEOMETRY. Cranking down the cushions is merely an attempt to hide it, but it is always there.
You can tighten up the action on a DA45 and it will still turn quite well. And you don't have to "crank them down" the whole way. Apparently you missed where I said about the range of performance between jingly loose and super tight. If you actually took the time to try a pair and get them dialed in, you'd know that

To the OP....if you're looking for a skate that will perform admirably for both outdoor and indoor, I would go with the Bonts on the size 6 DA45 Skins. A longer wheelbase DA45 plate will still give you good performance indoor, and if you like less turn response for outdoor you can easily tighten the action down a bit. A lot of people talk about the DA45s being twitchy, but my Royals are one of the most stable plates I've skated and they still turn on a dime. Plus, you can get the DA45s with flip axles which would be nice for you to be able to easily swap out indoor and outdoor wheels since you plan to use these skates for both.
__________________
Skate Drama Free
"Ultimate V - Like a skate mullet." -dvw
Iggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.