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Fitness Skating and Training Forum Discussions about on-skate and off-skate training, hydration, sports nutrition, weight loss, injuries, sports medicine, and other topics related to training and physical fitness for skaters.

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Old January 24th, 2008, 06:48 PM   #1
tdellaringa
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Default Let's Discuss Heart Rate Training

Branching off from the HR discussion on the training log which started here. Here are a couple pertinent quotes:

O/I Stated:
Quote:
i just can't seem to get anything over 153 bpm anymore.
Bill Noted:
Quote:
O/I, I know you are a far better skater than me, and are in very good condition, and far more experienced in training zones and heart rates and the like, but this statement made me a little concerned. If you truly can't get your heart rate over 153, no matter how high your level of exertion, you might want to go see a cardiologist. I think maybe I misread the post, though.
O/I's response

Then President Speedy interjected:
Quote:
I'm going to interject something and see if I'm right. I doubt it's a physical thing for OI. For me, solo spinning on the spinbike, I have a hard time getting my heart rate up above 160. I don't know what it is (or maybe I don't want to admit what I think it is ), but it just seems really tough to get the HR above 150's and hold it. And that is the secret, I just think the thing with the spinbike is that it can be tough, plain and simple. I can get my HR into the 170's, but it is only if I'm grinding my ass off on a standing climb that I can only do for a couple minutes. On the other hand, nowadays, at indoor practice during a hard warmup, my average HR is low 170's so go figure. It's just what you are more proficient at. I'm sure if we all spun more and placed a higher priority on it, we could work it a little differently.

My point was that proficiency at something allows you to operate at higher HR while feeling less perceived effort. When I'm grinding out the climb on the spin bike just to get to 170, I feel a lot worse than I do skating at 170
Back to O/I
Quote:
Pertaining to HR- thanks for the feedback. My HR is very low. My resting is 40 (though drops into 30s if i am very still) and Max is currently estimated at 158 bpm.

I can hit 158 in a flash when running. I think i would die before hitting it on the spin bike. Skating i could do it but only with my local honchoes in pursuit. Intervals alone i never get above 154 bpm.

Max HR guidelines: 220 minus your age is an approximation, which may vary, they say by as much as 12 bpm up or down. Weight bearing sports have slightly higher max HR by as much as 5 bpm higher for running as opposed to skating or cycling, which both involve a glide phase more or less.

I am excited about re-calcualting my numbers down and getting discilplined again about heart rate training zones - i gave up on them before becuase they were just calculated too high and i couldn't hit the anaerobic zones to train in.

(some snippage here to stay on track)
Speedy, i really think that this stuff is very specific to what you are doing, I suspect indoor speed skating MHR is going to be way different than numbers you will ever see outdoors. I don't know if the numbers you get in one area will help your training in the other. I know this is contrary to some ideas, but if you start using unrealistic numbers for training purposes, you (and I) are jiggered.
Speedys reply

More O/I with speedy responding in the next post

The next few after that are from various people including me, which brings it up to here. (I'm sure Kathy can actually move the posts to this thread, if she is so inclined).

I mentioned Barry Publow's book has extensive information on HR training specific to skating, and to training in general.

So I think the general pertinent questions are:
  • Figuring out which zones to train in, and why
  • Figuring out your own particular zones
  • How to increase your Anaerobic Threshold (lactic threshold)
  • How does skating HR differ from other fitness activities
Discuss.
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Last edited by tdellaringa; January 24th, 2008 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Removed sister's comments since they are not relevant.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:06 PM   #2
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Zones:

Should they be % of Max HR, or % of threshold?

If the latter, how do you estimate your threshold?
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:13 PM   #3
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I think you determine your LT as a percentage of your max and then zones are determined from that.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:14 PM   #4
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Zones are a % of Max HR - you are working a percentage of your maximum.

Finding the lactic threshold is a little trickier than just equating it to your max HR, but in my experience so far, it's darn close. There are complex tests to do it properly. I'm still reading up on this so I'll defer on that point.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedysktr View Post
I think you determine your LT as a percentage of your max and then zones are determined from that.
Hehe, ok, one of use is wrong, I think. Let me re-read what Publow says on that tonight.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:24 PM   #6
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I think we're saying the same thing in a different way.

Here's a pretty slick chart I found:
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #7
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Explanations:

http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm

True LT can only be done in a lab by drawing blood while exercising.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:31 PM   #8
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I think so pretty much. The thing about your lactic threshold is you could hit it in a couple different ways. One, you're in an all out sprint, you hit your max, the anaerobic system empties and lactic acid floods in, your done (until you recover).

But also, there's that time where you are pushing hard but not at your max - say on a hill, a hard sustained effort that leads you to the same spot. Either way you hit that threshold and you have to recover.

So ultimately, we all want to raise that ceiling in order to be able to increase our performance. We want to train the system to be able to work longer at those levels.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:35 PM   #9
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all looks pretty good to me, thanks Leroy....

...whatever, dude, it still doesn't have a multicolor chart
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:37 PM   #10
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90% of performance gains are dependant on intervals of some sort-so whatever your wishes and wants are for training, the sooner you get used to busting your ass in some intervals, the easier it will be.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedysktr View Post
90% of performance gains are dependant on intervals of some sort-so whatever your wishes and wants are for training, the sooner you get used to busting your ass in some intervals, the easier it will be.
+1 to that. The little bit of it I did last year was very helpful. Gonna be on the interval train this year for sure.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:40 PM   #12
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Cool chart...but it all depends on where you start...HR wise...

Looking at the 40yo column: They have moderate at 90bpm...walking for me is 100bpm...anaerobic is definitely not 144/162 and not the 30yo (closest to my real max hr column) 152/171.

I once read that the % was based from your resting HR not 0...So for me a 70% exertion would be (190-70)*.7+70 = 154 and not 190 * .7 = 133.

For me at 133 I'm doing nothing at 154 I'm working but I can still talk coherently.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:42 PM   #13
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For me at 133 I'm doing nothing at 154 I'm working but I can still talk coherently.
That's exactly where I'm at too - I'm 42. I haven't checked my resting HR in a while, last time I did it was like 50. I start getting 'breathy' at around 160+
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdellaringa View Post
But also, there's that time where you are pushing hard but not at your max - say on a hill, a hard sustained effort that leads you to the same spot. Either way you hit that threshold and you have to recover.

If you really are doing a controlled effort keeping your HR constant than no you will not hit it...Your HR is going up...keeping your speed constant while going up a hill implies and increased expenditure in energy on your part otherwise you would slow down...
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:44 PM   #15
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Right - I guess I meant a slower increase than that quick burst when you sprint - you still get to the same place, just not as fast.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:46 PM   #16
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True to a point. LT is hit when the body is no longer able clear the lactic acid from the muscles. Sprinting or going up hill does not necessarily mean you have hit the LT.

The chart is really cool. LoL
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
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True to a point. LT is hit when the body are no longer able clear the lactic acid from the muscles. Sprinting or going up hill does not necessarily mean you have hit the LT.
I didn't say it did. Those are merely two ways that your body can get to the point where your muscles cannot clear the acid, thus LT. I'm sure we can all find hills we can clear without hitting our LT.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:50 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdellaringa View Post
So I think the general pertinent questions are:
  • Figuring out which zones to train in, and why
  • Figuring out your own particular zones
  • How to increase your Anaerobic Threshold (lactic threshold)
  • How does skating HR differ from other fitness activities
Discuss.


About VO2 max for EM - the ice track story

I know somewhere on his site, there is an article about that ice coach and how it worked, could not find it - if I find it I'll post it later.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:51 PM   #19
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Heart rate zones depend upon whose training theory you use.

If you use the "Cyclist's Training Bible" by Joe Friel, then Speedy is correct. He bases his training zones upon what your LT (lactate threshold) is. He has a formula or something in his book you can use to find your LT but the only way to do it correctly is to have a test done as MachV says.

If you go with other theories it is based upon you max heart rate which is what most people use because it is the easiest for most of us to determine. I use the following which I learned when I took a class to become a spinning instructor:

65% - 75%: Aerobic base building/recovery
75% - 85%: Aerobic Strength building
85% - 95%: Anaerobic
95% - 100%: All out Sprint

I can follow this easily when on a trainer but on skates in order for me to be in the 65% - 75% range I have to almost be in an upright position listening to jazz music and watching the clouds go by. Most of my training on skates is done in the two middle zones and pushing the top zone one or twice a week.

My aerobic base building is done on the trainer.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 09:53 PM   #20
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Yeah, I read that article. What he did was do very low HR training for 6 months without ever going above a certain level, based on Norwegian(? - can't remember exactly) techniques, where they say some people do that for 3 years running and it somehow then allows you to explode into a new stratosphere. You are only allowed to exceed that low rate something like once a month.

Honestly, I love Eddy, but I don't buy the theory much. I don't think he trains like that now either. Plus, I don't have the time to try such a technique
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