Wheel Size: Feels Fast vs. Is Fast

[Spencer.Berry]

I've been on 4x110 since late summer. Super fast, great roll, etc. However, right before Silver Strand (early November) I had a moment of doubt. I was worried that on long distance, short sprints and starts that my ankles were flexing too much, and maybe I was losing some power. At the time, I was doing some 2-minute intervals, slightly anaerobic at around 22+ mph. Not long distance, and not a sprint. Definitely the best case for 4x110. But I could still feel just a little sloppiness in my ankles. For kicks, I decided to do an experiment. I grabbed some old 90's from the back of my car and put them on the 110 frame. Went out to do some more 2-minute intervals to compare. Well, the first thing that I noticed was that my ankles felt incredibly strong with just 10mm lower deck height. Each set down was perfect, and each push was rock solid. Cool! Since I always skate with a GPS, I feel like I can guess my speed pretty well. So, the next thing that struck me was -- damn are these 90's slow! How could people even move on 80's back in the old days??? Surely I'm not going more than 18 or 19mph. What a stupid experiment! But then I look at my GPS and I'm going 23.5! There MUST be something wrong here. So, I keep experimenting. A few laps with 90's, then a few laps with 110's, and so on. At the end of the day, my conclusion was that any 'real' difference in speed was much smaller than experimental error. Certainly 110's must have microscopically faster roll, but I don't think that there's any way to measure it when there is a human involved. Too many variables. Ankle flex is probably easier to confirm. If you notice any ankle flex or pronation, you're probably losing lots of power. If your teammates or coach notice any ankle flex or pronation, then you're probably losing lots of power. The biggest conclusion is that you can't trust your intuition about "roll". The feeling is absolutely dramatic! Unbelievably so. I was sure that 90's were WAY slower than 110's, but I now believe that any real difference is almost non-existent (on smooth pavement).

Since it was so close to Silver Strand, I didn't want to make any changes, so I tried not to think about it and stuck with 110's for the race. Ended up with only 13th after a bad start. Since then, I've been continuing to experiment. My lowest frame is a 4x100 S-Frame. Lately I've been using 90's on this frame. This puts me 15mm lower than 110s' on my 4x110 frame. The 90's are my current favorite. My form feels much better. I should mention that I have relatively high ankle bones, which puts me at a slight disadvantage for big wheels. What will I race on this year? Who knows. I'm going to keep experimenting. I just thought that it might be interesting to point out that the "incredible roll of big wheels" may be mostly an illusion -- a VERY convincing illusion! Pronation and sloppy ankles are very real. Some people have genetics that are favorable to big wheels. For other people, if your form isn't perfect and your ankles aren't rock solid, you might actually be faster on smaller wheels with lowest possible deck height.

Spencer

[tdellaringa]

Interesting stuff - do keep us posted!

[Bill in Houston]

This is a difficult thing to test, but I am glad that you are trying. It will be interesting to see the results.

[Spencer.Berry]

Note that I don't expect to have any definitive results, due to all of the variables. This is just a reminder that in our sport, good form may be more important than good roll. Because of the insatiable lust for big wheels, and the powerful 'illusion' of big-wheel-roll, it's hard to be honest with yourself about ankle issues. I've been lusting for 110's since I saw those first Supersonics! If you feel compelled to try 110's, allow several months to adapt, and then try to be objective about your ankles. Some people will be faster on 110's. But if you're sloppy, then you might not be ready for the increased deck height. Re-read Mantia's tips about ankles:
http://www.inlineplanet.com/08/01/mantia.html

[Code Monkey]

Very interesting Spenser. Now I got something else for you to think about. If you can try a 5x90. I am not a racer and I really have no idea of how good I am. I can however put on some serious mileage and skate quite a bit. I have been experimenting with 110s, 3x110 1x90, 4x100,and 5x84, 5x90. When I was reading your post it sounded so much like me talking. I could go on in detail but the best way I can say it (with feeling) is that the others never felt stable to me. Ankle wise, and back wheel going under infront of me to soon, glide not sustainable, pushes were just not much to talk about. Then a friend of mine analyzed my skating and he is a specialist in biomechanics. He took all kinds of measurements and then measured me in various racing positions. He tells me my frames for my foot size is to short and not optimum. I have size 13. So I showed him the 5x90 and he said that's it. So I tried it. OMG!, what a difference. It also gave the illusion that I wasn't really skating any faster, I just felt more stable. Then I noticed that I finish my laps about ten to fifteen minutes earlier than before. I haven't actually recorded my speed but I will. It just is amazing to me how just a few millimeters can make so much of a difference.

Keep posting. It was interesting to read about your experimentation.

[chacata]

Yeah let's get some bottom lines here, i'm going nuts deciding between 5x90 or 4 x110. 6'2" 240lbs Sz.12

[MachV]

Some frame makers have been trying to get that point across.


OK, here we go.........I will try to make this all encompassing and post on multiple boards.

FRAME LENGTH
Frame length depends on several factors: leg length (inseam), height, and ability are some of the biggest ones. For most NON-PRO men, a 12.8" frame should suffice, especially with the larger wheels available. If you are a NON-PRO, and over 6' tall, or a TRUE PRO, a 13"-13.2" frame would be for you. If you are younger, a female, or on the shorter side(size 5-7 boot), a 12.4"-12.8" 4-100 may be in your future. There are several reasons for this. First and foremost, a skate that is easier to push is usually a faster skate for you, especially in a longer race. As long as you are not getting out-rolled wheel wise, if you have a shorter frame on, at the end of a race, you should out sprint someone with a longer frame on, regardless of wheel diameter.

# OF WHEELS
I'll try to make this one short and sweet....if you are under 140 lbs. and under a size 5 boot, a 3-wheel frame may be right for you. If you have a boot too small for a 195mm mount (under a size 5), a 3W-110 is a viable alterative. This is what alot of the women at IDN were on, and it looked like it was working well. If you can use a 195 boot, though, a 4-100 should be faster for you, though.

WHEEL DIAMETER
Use the most of the biggest wheels available if you are a male. Meaning, for a typical NON-PRO male, IMHO, a 12.8" 4-100, 2-110/2-100 or a 3-110/1-100 should work the best. If you are taller or on that cusp of being a TRUE PRO, try a 13.2, then try both 100 and 110 wheels and see which works best. If you are a NON-PRO female, a 3W-110, 4-100 (12.4 or 12.8), or a 2-110/2-100 should be the best.I have read most of the posts on this and other boards and agree with alot of what is being said, if not for other reasons. Mach V is correct about the OAL, but I feel for a different reason. It’s not the overall length, but the roll-out if the larger diameter wheels in play here, ESPECIALLY THE FRONT WHEEL. That front wheel dictates you cadence, and plays a larger factor of how you skate than you may think. At IDN I saw more than not a 3-110/1-100 beating a 4-110, and quite a few skaters that had NO business being on a 4-110.Don't confuse "ROLL" with "ROLLOUT" (circumference) of a larger diameter wheel. Just because you travel a further distance between pushes, don't think that you are getting more roll. Getting 'more roll' has more to do with maintaining you speed between pushes, than length of your push. It also has to do with ease of the push. If you are going faster, or even the same speed easier, then you are getting more roll. O/I has it right when he stated about the longer frames and bigger wheels having drawbacks (tradeoffs) if you cannot push them. Don't get me wrong, 4-110s are fast, especially if you are a pro or taller skater. To me they are easier to push at 'mid' speeds, like upper teens, but as soon as you have to extend or go on a break a few times, they get real heavy real fast. This is why I feel get the most amount of the biggest wheels in the shortest frame and you should do better. For most of you out there that are already on 4-110s and taughting how good they are, how do you train, steady state? Do you run a marathon at 'X' mph and stay there till the end?? This is all fine and dandy, but what about in real race situations?? Sprinkle a few real hard, long intervals in there like a competitor is trying to drop you, and see how the 4-110s feel. Odds are a shorter frame with 1 or 2 less 110s will feel better at the end. In the end only you, or your coach (not me or anyone else on this board) can evaluate your self honestly. So you have to pick what is best for you the first time, unless you are Mach V and own one of EVERYTHING (LOL). What I am trying to say if you are in between picking a bigger setup (4-110) or a slightly smaller one(3-110/1-100), go with the smaller one, as you will probably be alot happier.

George Neal Liberty Sports, Inc.
www.libertysports-race.com

TEAM MPC
www.mpcspeed.comgeorge@libertysports-race.com

[Spencer.Berry]

For reference, I'm 6'1" and 187lbs.

I'm guessing that it's not so much height, weight, or shoe size that determines how much deck height you can handle, but rather the height of your ankle bone. A tiny woman with extremely low ankle bones might be able to handle 110's better than a tall man with high ankle bones. An example from Bill Begg:
"tiny Anne-Claire Maillard (93 lbs) tore up Glarus on 100mm wheels and in the process beat most the men. Meanwhile, Marc Christen nearly won on 80mm wheels."
http://www.inlineplanet.com/2007-05/begg-2.html
http://www.jorgebotero.com/index.php...d=265&Itemid=2

You would think that there is no way a 5x80 could possibly end up on the podium in a WIC event these days, but this just shows that wheel size is insignificant compared to other factors. Even big Roger Schneider (6'6") says he prefers 5x90 to 4x100.

BTW, I've only recently come out of the closet about my wheel size preference. After two years of lusting for the biggest possible wheels, it's been hard to admit (even to myself) that I skate faster and with better form on smaller wheels.

The thing that still blows my mind is how slow it "feels" when you first switch back to smaller wheels.

Also, I haven't joined in on the frame length discussion. I'm mostly fascinated by the height issue at the moment.

[BWI-Sheldon]

Disclaimer: I am not one of the great experienced skaters here but I do have 2000 miles on 110mm.

First, the extra 5mm of deck height is a much harder jump, on the ankles, than going from 80mm to 100mm. Sounds trifle but it must be crossing a certain leverage threshold. It took me at least 6 months, 1500miles, to keep the ankles on top of the wheels, while pushing hard.
So it probably is that you aren't there yet with the ankles.

Second, and this is a known fact. The 110mm are fifth gear in the transmission. 80mm are like first gear.
Your on the highway and need to sprint around the idiot in the granny lane. You need to downshift to get the torque up to accelerate. At this point the engine RPM can handle this for a short while, while gulping fuel and oxygen.
It's the exact same thing on the high speed sprint with the 110mm. I just posted today in the training log my exact sentiments. I noticed that on 110mm I can't sprint past 22mph, at this point. (hopefully I will build up the muscles) It takes longer to get up to speed and accelerate, but it cruises at higher speeds with less cadence and less overall energy.
So you gotta ask yourself, are you are rabbit or the turtle? Younger, shorter, and lighter skaters, has the higher leg speed similar to a lower gear. For them they can get better speed out of a smaller wheel by keeping the cadence. Like a corvette. Older, taller and heavier skaters like myself get the speed out of utilizing my weight and leverage, to crank out some impressive horsepower at a lower leg speed. Like a Freightliner big rig barreling down the highway.
So the 110's can give you an overall advantage of best speed over distance if your ankles can handle it.
In sprints and paceline's speeding up and slowing down, 110mm can get you bogged down.
In short, 110mm is a training experience that only will show progress after many miles.

Edit; 6'0" 215lbs.

[gneal]

Originally Posted by Spencer.Berry

For reference, I'm 6'1" and 187lbs.
The thing that still blows my mind is how slow it "feels" when you first switch back to smaller wheels.

That's because of how many more times you must stroke in a given distance.

Also, I haven't joined in on the frame length discussion. I'm mostly fascinated by the height issue at the moment.

Height/length/wheel diameter are pretty interrelated. Its what combination works for YOU...not a sponsored 'PRO' skater.

Because you are using less energy to push the 90s, it allows you to set your feet down better as well as being lower to the ground.

[MachV]

Originally Posted by Spencer.Berry

For reference, I'm 6'1" and 187lbs.

I'm guessing that it's not so much height, weight, or shoe size that determines how much deck height you can handle, but rather the height of your ankle bone. A tiny woman with extremely low ankle bones might be able to handle 110's better than a tall man with high ankle bones. An example from Bill Begg:
"tiny Anne-Claire Maillard (93 lbs) tore up Glarus on 100mm wheels and in the process beat most the men. Meanwhile, Marc Christen nearly won on 80mm wheels."
http://www.inlineplanet.com/2007-05/begg-2.html
http://www.jorgebotero.com/index.php...d=265&Itemid=2

You would think that there is no way a 5x80 could possibly end up on the podium in a WIC event these days, but this just shows that wheel size is insignificant compared to other factors. Even big Roger Schneider (6'6") says he prefers 5x90 to 4x100.

BTW, I've only recently come out of the closet about my wheel size preference. After two years of lusting for the biggest possible wheels, it's been hard to admit (even to myself) that I skate faster and with better form on smaller wheels.

The thing that still blows my mind is how slow it "feels" when you first switch back to smaller wheels.

Also, I haven't joined in on the frame length discussion. I'm mostly fascinated by the height issue at the moment.

There are many variables like you said. No more "You need a 12.8 frame." marketing. Each individual has to find what works for them and they may be shocked like you were. One size does not fit all.

Btw, The higher the sole of your foot is off the ground, the longer your leg becomes.

[Code Monkey]

I'm 6'1" tall and between 195-200 lbs. It fluctuates depending on how many miles I am skating. I wish I could tell you one frame to choose. Problem is I think it is a matter of how it personally feels to you. I do think the bigger frame is best for bigger feet but I wouldn't say that is an absolute truth. Personally I just don't think I am a good enough skater (completely self taught) to skate on a 110 mm wheel. I've tried and I can do short distances ok, 5 miles or so. However, I like to skate every day and I like to keep moving for an hour to an hour and a half and one day a week two hours and a half. I do now take a day and spend my hour doing one mile fast then a slow one then a fast one till my hour is up. It kills me and the next day is a slow day. There may be something to a shorter frame for speed but outside I have chased cyclists on my 5x90 and I find I do much better. The other thing is my ankles can last because of the lower deck height. Also, without a doubt as far as I'm concerned is that a longer frame is better for going over road imperfections. I use the Tru-Rev 5x90. Light and very strong, very well made. And one thing that I really love is I can run over all kinds of things, mainly deep cracks in concrete and just roll right over it. So much fun.

[Code Monkey]

By the way I am just going by my personal feeling I really have no idea as far as frame length or wheel size. It makes sense to me what everyone is saying. I really just tried various frames and then wham! Without a doubt for me the 5x90 is a good fit. Like gneal said the 90 wheel enables more sure footedness for a nonpro skater and oh, I am so nonpro. Except in my dreams, where I am skating along with Roger Schneider in the Alps. Also, going over the road imperfections may have some to do with length but also wheel height, I really don't know why, it just does. When I was trying so hard to skate on 110s I read a post by gneal who said some people have no business skating on 110s. Oh that hurt and was so me. I would go maybe three miles and turn into a wobbly goblin. It was laughable if I didn't cry so loud. Now if gneal made a 5x90, I would be on that puppy! (Hint, Hint)

[Spencer.Berry]

Surprisingly, my cadence doesn't speed up with smaller wheels. On my lunch break, I do tons of intervals and count 20-25 pushes per leg over a fixed distance. For these very short intervals, I don't see any change in cadence. If anything, I have a slower cadence with 90's because I can put more power into each push. For long distance skates, I don't count pushes, but I'm sure that my stride gets shorter and my cadence gets higher on 110's when my ankles start getting fatigued. I think that frame length has a bigger effect on cadence than deck height. Basically, for my genetics and/or skill level everything is better with a lower deck height. I do think that I prefer longish frames, though.

[BWI-Sheldon]

oops

Just wondering, of the people here on 110mm, how long did it take you to feel as comfterble on them, as on 100mm.

Like I said, I went from 80mm to 100mm with no problem. The jump to 110mm took me 4 months to be able to skate 15 miles. 7 months to get up to 26 miles without ankles collapsing.

[Mark]

For me, it took me about a week or so to put over in over 20 miles in one skate when I went from 5x84mm to 4x100mm wheels (when I switched from fitness to speed boots about 1.5 months ago) and the 2nd skate I did when I put the 110mm on was 30 miles, so I seemed to acclimate pretty quick to them.

[chacata]

Back in the day i could do 36 mph flat out on 80 and 82mm wheels so i really think 100 or 110 wheels are not faster. What made me reach more speed than ever was my change to 13,50" frames before that on 12,80"s i would do only 33 mph max but of course had a much violent sprint.

I think that we are looking for answer that we already know (me included).

P.S: I'm getting tired of talking about "when i was a speedskater" sh!t i need to go and skate already!!

[MachV]

You max speed is your max speed when you body trained to the nth degree. Genetics will take over. Bigger wheels may make it easier to cover a distance, but at Max the wall is in your genes.

[panch0]

I agree with Chacata and I have said it before (in case anybody remembers me saying so...) but IMO it's the frame length and not the wheel size. At least the 13.2 (4x100) Mogemas that I am presently using have done the trick for me (Iwant to get some Liberty Sports 4x110 but use them with 100's!)! However, I find it interesting what Spencer comments about frame height with his experiment.


I was talking a while back with a local elite skater who is an excellent marathoner .... He was telling me that he likes to skate on a 13.5 frame but what he really wants is a 13.7+ frame. This skater is about 5'7"- 5"8".

Chacata, compadre... ponte a patinar y dejate de vainas!

[chacata]

You max speed is your max speed when you body trained to the nth degree. Genetics will take over. Bigger wheels may make it easier to cover a distance, but at Max the wall is in your genes

Forgot to say those max speeds where measured with a radar gun but i'm pretty sure i went faster this time when i got mad and depressed because of a girl and went to skate on the highway

Pancho estoy casi seguro que voy a terminar en 5x90 soy muy cabeza dura cuando algo se me pone en la mente es muy dificil dar marcha atras. Jajaja ya tengo una legion de gente nueva que va a empezar a patinar solo por yo volver al deporte. Gracias por lo de compadre.